Exhaust TECH Mufflers, Headers and Pipes Issues

          
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Old 02-01-2022, 06:59 PM
tom s tom s is offline
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Default 400 RA III compare of pass car,RA manifolds and long branch manifolds

Guys,back in 2000 Muscle Car Review had a fresh blue print 69 TA RA III engine on the dyno.Built and tuned by Dan Jensen.I have the article and can post the results if there is interest.Results were surprising.Tom

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Old 02-01-2022, 07:38 PM
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Post them, sir!

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Old 02-01-2022, 07:51 PM
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Did you buy them?Tom

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Old 02-01-2022, 07:58 PM
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Yep, got the entire RARE long branch kit, oil filter adapter, etc two weeks ago.

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Old 02-01-2022, 08:34 PM
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OK,for anyone that wants to read the complete article it was MCR November 2000.Dan Jensen is the guy that puts on the FAST muscle car race and is a master tuner.The factory RA A body manifolds made 368 HP@4800 after a lot of tuning on the blue printed 69TA 400.With factory logs with mandrel bent head pipes it made 360 HP @ 4800. They then put on the factory long branch and it made 370 HP @ 4900. So my take is for a street car going thru mufflers a 10HP gain wont be felt in the ass dyno.This engine ended up being in the 69TA I bought in March of 2000.Tom

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Old 02-01-2022, 09:08 PM
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Thanks Tom!

Now I don’t feel so bad running log exhaust manifolds and mandrel bent 2-1/2” down pipes on my 421 HO.

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Old 02-01-2022, 09:12 PM
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BUT they dont have the "COOL" look factor!Tom

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Old 02-02-2022, 11:55 AM
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Great info there and it's hard to believe there is such little difference. I would have guessed the long branch manifolds would be king by a longshot.

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69 GTO Liberty Blue/dark blue 467, 850 Holley, T2, Edelbrock Dport 310cfm w Ram Air manifolds, HFT 245/251D .561/.594L, T400, 9" w 3.50s 3905lbs 11.59@ 114, 1.57/ 60'
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Old 02-02-2022, 12:10 PM
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I was watching a show on Motortrend called Engine Masters (and the Overhaulin' Bandit episode). EM did a comparison of cast iron stock exhaust logs, shorty cast iron headers (like the long branch RARE), and full headers, 1.75" pipes.

The full headers made the most power, but the cast iron headers weren't far behind. They were definitely way ahead of the exhaust logs, and no clearance problems.

The Foose Bandit episode had Richard from Magnaflow praising that clients KRE heads with the long branch manifolds as well.

Jeff @ KRE said I would get a lot more out of my top end upgrade with the RARE long branch manifolds...and...as toms s posted..."they have the look".

I'm guessing my modified 400 will be putting out more hp than the RA motor when done, so I'm fine with spending the money to let it breath properly. The hell with it, you only go around once, right? LOL

Jim

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Old 02-02-2022, 02:41 PM
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this got me looking, because I was sure I had this issue/article - apparently I did not.

Scratch that!

I found it!

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Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)

Last edited by unruhjonny; 02-02-2022 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 02-02-2022, 04:03 PM
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I just wanted to touch on this one bit of Tom's post (#5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
... on the blue printed 69TA 400...
After a re-read of the article, it seems as though this was not a blue printed engine, but rather a bone stock rebuild.
The initial run had it actually below (GTO) advertised at 352hp @ 5,700rpm & 422 lb-ft @ 3,900rpm.
The only tweaks were timing and jetting.
After peak power was nailed with '69 Firebird exhaust manifolds, then the exhaust manifold shootout happened;
1969 Firebird manifolds: 370hp @ 4,900 rpm & 454 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm
1969 GTO manifolds: 368hp @ 4,800 rpm & 448 lb-ft @ 3,600 rpm
"mid 1970's" logs: 360hp @ 4,800 rpm & 442 lb-ft @ 3,500 rpm

There was another article in the September 2005 Musclecar Enthusiast which had blue printed RAIII & RAIV engines;

Those (blueprinted) ones netted:
RAIII: 382.5hp @ 4,600 rpm & 486.5 lb-ft @ 3,500 rpm
RAIV: 426.8ho @ 6,000rpm & 462.5 lb-ft @ 3,700 rpm

This article also indicated that Dan Jensen was involved with these dyno pulls;
The RAIII used 1969 Firebird exhaust manifolds, while the RAIV used 1970 GTO/Firebird exhaust manifolds;
Peak RAIV number were made with the shaker assembly installed.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)

Last edited by unruhjonny; 02-02-2022 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 02-02-2022, 06:24 PM
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I say blue printed as I know the engine was decked,squared etc.I know because when I bought my T/A which Dan helped me get I was told Scott Tiemann redid all the brake system including new lines and Dan rebuilt the engine to stock specs but not just a simple rebuild.FWIW,Tom

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Old 02-03-2022, 06:32 PM
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Lee Atkinson chassis dyno'd his TA clone stock 455 and the headers he used over log manifolds made a big difference.

I know one of the guys back in the NMCA when I was in it in Top Stock had I think a 61 Bubble top Ventura(?) with those really long cast manifolds that ran pretty fraking fast and did not get the factored HP hit for headers. Last name was Robb. Had to come torn down at one Memphis race to check his heads I want to think som early SDs-to me the port divider wall was awful thin but he passed tech. Now Steve Cagles Buick GS had aluminum rods on tear down!

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
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1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 02-03-2022, 06:44 PM
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full length headers, and good head pipes will always make more power - I doubt that anyone didn't believe this.
Factory manifolds are pretty hard to beat as far as zero maintenance is concerned.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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Old 02-03-2022, 06:59 PM
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From Unruhjonny's post: "RAIV: 426.8ho @ 6,000rpm & 462.5 lb-ft @ 3,700 rpm"

Just a minor correction for the RAIV's best pulls on that dyno that session way back in 2005 was 445.6 hp @ 5900 rpm and 487.5 lb/ft torque @ 3800 rpm.

Dennis

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Old 02-03-2022, 07:01 PM
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I want to think Lee used Tribal Tri Ys

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 02-03-2022, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
OK,for anyone that wants to read the complete article it was MCR November 2000.Dan Jensen is the guy that puts on the FAST muscle car race and is a master tuner.The factory RA A body manifolds made 368 HP@4800 after a lot of tuning on the blue printed 69TA 400.With factory logs with mandrel bent head pipes it made 360 HP @ 4800. They then put on the factory long branch and it made 370 HP @ 4900. So my take is for a street car going thru mufflers a 10HP gain wont be felt in the ass dyno.This engine ended up being in the 69TA I bought in March of 2000.Tom
Tom S. - Dan actually has nothing to do with F.A.S.T., he is PSMCDR (Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race). The F.A.S.T. race does have a pure stock category they call "Factory Stock". We race our pure stockers there because we don't organize or run the event, so we can actually participate and have fun for a change. We can't race at our event (PSMCDR) since we are so busy running the show.

Dennis

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Old 02-03-2022, 07:16 PM
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Thats right,was thinking the wrong organization!Thanks

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Old 02-03-2022, 07:18 PM
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Skip,Ted Robb?

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Old 02-03-2022, 08:07 PM
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Tom pretty sure yes Ted Robb. Nice looking black car. Pretty darned fast too.

Those were fun classes heads up.Top Stock had factored HP into weight. Different rated HP(my RAIV was the same as a SCJ 429 Ford!) additions for headers, aluminum intake one for factory-another for aftermarket, another for carb size. Cam HP was based on a 1000 rpm idle vacuum-so everyone ran a vacuum advance and fast timing curve. 9" slicks and had to have a full exhaust system. Comp Cams/RHS was the big sponsor .Russ and Ivar Smeltnicks.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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