[1971GTO]

I have questions of the term "Numbers Matching". Can a car have a certain amount of reprod. parts on it and still be "Numbers Matching". The term could be thrown around alot and used only in reference to the most essential parts, like ther motor, trans and rearend. What do we all come to expect from the use of this description?

Because if I ever wanted to sell my 455HO I would not want to the term wrongly; personally I'd want to be very upfront with what is correct for the car and not. I am not lucky enough to have the build sheet, but I've installed some non original and reprod. items on my car that I felt the car needed or was missing when I got it. The reprod. Judge wing, of course....... pair of sport mirrors from a 73 Firebird, and a non ram-air dual snorkel air cleaner that I put together.

Your comments are appriciated!

Mike.

[RAM AIR 1967]

Hi Mike this is Joe Lenoir give me a call 360-256-8922. I have been working on my 72 GTO 455 HO car.

[The Boss]

Numbers matching is the most over used and abused term in the hobby.

In the loosest possible way it means that the engine block, transmission case and rear end housing were the ones that were in the frame when the car left the factory. Fully numbers matching will include everything from the distributor, carb and alternator to the hoses, wires and clamps.

[1971GTO]

Joe, I will send you PM when I can get through in the next day of so.

[TJH]

By the strictest definition, it would mean only those parts that carried specific stamping identifications that correlated with the VIN. Those parts would include the engine block and transmission, frame, and welded body shell structure.
Although not truly "numbers matching", approprate date-coded and application-specific parts such as rear axle, plug wires, distributor, carburetor, wheels, and date-stamped bolt-on sheetmetal parts would make the car concours-correct. However, these parts would not "match" anything unique to the specific car- they would only generally reflect appropriate production dating, as they never carried any feature that would correspond to the VIN, body build number, or motor unit number.

[TJH]

Oh, I should also add, that add-on option content, such as the spoiler that you mentioned, would not have carried any visible identification whatsoever, and also would not factor into the "numbers-matching" game. Now, for the diehard build-sheet-correct crowd, these parts would be considered incorrect, as they were never original to the car, regardless of hidden date codes or part numbers.

[Judge273]

Any pictures of the Quezal Gold, '71 455HO?

[1971GTO]

having trouble getting picture out there on this forum, can I e-mail to you?

[Judge273]

1971GTO: email to mjsparks@sbcglobal.net, and I will post them for you.

[Lloyd-TX]

Here's MY personal view of what a "numbers-matching" Pontiac should be.

Basic body shell, with all OEM pieces that would have a factory VIN or partial VIN stamp and/or date code.
Frame (or front subframe on a Firebird)

Engine block - NO re-stamps
Cylinder head casting # is correct and dates properly for the car
Transmission case - NO re-stamps
Diff housing - correct stamped code and dated properly
Distributor - correct PN stamp and date - NO re-stamps
Carburetor - correct PN stamp, date and plant code - NO re-stamps

IMO, bolt-on sheet metal parts, if OEM, NOS or good used do NOT detract from the value. Neither do good quality, correct appearing consumables - belts, hoses, clamps, tune-up parts, etc.

Tastefully added "options" generally don't bother me, as long as they were available on that particular car - either factory or dealer installed.

Crappy quality, garishly incorrect stuff REALLY turns me off, however!

[Judge273]

I agree with Lloyd in a perfect world, But..

What about Service Replacement carbs? I don't know what term to use, but there are judging rules that allow them if they are coded correctly.

Same question is true for a SR block or SR heads? What would be considered okay or acceptable in concours judging? Correct code and dated block, and/or heads. Knowing it is no longer numbers matching? But, as an acceptable replacement part for when the piece is long gone or just not in the budget.

Some of the transmission cases don't have vin stamps either? Some think they are under warranty replacements.

What would you rate as level of importance? Number 1: Block with vin. What would be next, and so on?

[68addict]

Mike, I think the term #s matching is the second most abused term as 1st is restoration LOL.

Anyway,

I am NOT a concourse judge, but here is what I Anthony look for and whose jaw drops at car shows or in for sale adds:

The correct engine, trans and rear with the correct codes and either partial vins or serial numbers. Correct date coded carb for application, and distributer. Frame and body shell should be original with factory riveted tags. I am not a fan of restamping to win trphies, to me that could amount to fraud.....No rebody either.

Options. if it matches the build sheet awesome....

just for me....
Extra goodies: as long as they are period correct I like seeing things like wood wheels, power steering/disk brakes, maybe buckets in lieu of bench consoles added, etc. bigger diameter factory appearing rims.

There, remember, this is JUST my opinion. I am not an authority by any means....

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Judge273

I agree with Lloyd in a perfect world, But..

What about Service Replacement carbs? I don't know what term to use, but there are judging rules that allow them if they are coded correctly.

Same question is true for a SR block or SR heads? What would be considered okay or acceptable in concours judging? Correct code and dated block, and/or heads. Knowing it is no longer numbers matching? But, as an acceptable replacement part for when the piece is long gone or just not in the budget.

Some of the transmission cases don't have vin stamps either? Some think they are under warranty replacements.

What would you rate as level of importance? Number 1: Block with vin. What would be next, and so on?

The block is def the most important numbers matching item. If the original block is gone, then my opinion is that the next best would be a CORRECT and appropriately dated SR block. Next best would be a correctly code-stamped and dated block with an incorrect VIN stamp, etc.

Since the transmission case and diff housing stamps aren't so easily seen, I'd say next most important would be that the cylinder heads are correct and properly dated castings. Next in line would be the carburetor, then the distributor, then probably the trans case and diff housing.

[1971GTO]

Yes, I don't know why it won't post my picture with reply. Ive done it in some past posts. Will get that to you very soon.

Anyway..... Great color contrast on the car, orig, 455HO block, heads, exhaust manifolds, intake, body(except right fender), 3.55 diff.,Turbo 400,dash orig., interior re-done with P/Y kit painted orig. color w/black vinyl top. Not even a body off resto. Base/clear in a garage for $700.

Is that enough original items to be to meet anyones def. of numbers match. I realize the term is misused. I just wish not to. I had to put a reman. distributor in because it was missing(gone); right now it hold my Pertronix ignitor. I will search an original out later. It's a great driver. 15"Honeycombs from a man in Michigan. Trim rings from local Pontiac dealer in Roseburg.

It'll do 0-60 in 7.5............ the 1/4 mile in 13.40

PS. It's not for sale (nestegg/goodluck charm), just curious of all your prof. opinions.

OH.............any thought's on it's value? Latest average from Nadaguides is around 30k. Picture to come.

Thanks for all commets and info. guys!

[Lloyd-TX]

Well, I certainly hope we get to see some pics - it sounds like an awesome HO car!

As you can tell by my sig, I'm quite the HO nut, LOL!

[4SLASH6]

sounds like a great car ,and FAST too do you have original carb? even if not, I would say go ahead and define as #'s matching. as the fellas have said, it is a loosly used term. as long you are upfront on what few items would not fit this term. I tink 68 addict hits home with his description, and 1 that protects your ride and should not hurt future value. we need pic's

[Judge273]

Sounds like there are some very fast, and very cool 71 HO car out there. I saw this one recently, and looks to be a solid car with bench and tree shifter. http://cars-on-line.com/25481.html

The last three 71 GTO HO I've seen for sale don't have the RA option? Anyone have numbers on that?

[Sport71]

Don't have any numbers on that, but those H.O. non-Ram Air air cleaners are hard to come by ...

[1971GTO]

Nope, don't have the 7041268 carb. big bummer for me now, expensive to find one. Has a reman. Q-Jet by Holley-they do that. Summit led me on to that.

I bought it in kinda rough shape for.................$1800.00 August 2000 in Myrtle Creek 25 miles south of here. Old man's kid lived in Calif. and lost interest in restoring it so it sat. Parents wanted it out of garage so they put it in the local "shopper" paper for $3000. Body panels rust free and perfect (Fremont, CA car). Optional 15" Honeycombs replaced with Ralley 2's at some time. Gas tank gone but the boy came up from CA and we fired the motor, out of tune with a small gas can to the fuel pump.

No brakes, the kid let it roll down the driveway and into a small Madrone tree after I left the meet, ruining the right fender. One year only and GTO only part; this would prove to be a tough item to find, but in Hemmings a retired policeman in Miami had old muscle car parts and a decent one for $700. I seooped on that too.

His folks were more than happy to entertain offers by now. Rare judgement on my part to buy it, but I ran the #'s and it was worth something + I always wanted a GTO. I had to jump on it because a buddy at work has a friend who had seen it and turned it down because the VIN and block numbers didn't match. He would have hacked it up into a drag car I hear.......Chevy Guys! When I told him the distributor turned counterclockwise he called BS on me.

Kid didn't know what he had! These days that's kinda hard to believe with the amount of info. people are able to access on these kind of things. I'll try to scan some initial photos to CD of when I got it home, don't have many. Mostly resto. pictures. Resto is boby on and essentially repaint.

A local guy who repaired my washing machine a few years later, owned the car in the 80's. Small world. He rebuilt the motor .06 over and put a little more cam in it than the stock 068. Kinda lopey but runs fine.

Sorry for rambling but I think the story is fun. Real pretty car I think and underrated. Why?

[1971GTO]

let's try a picture again