[rohrt]

I'm a virgin cam degree'er so be kind.

I'm swapping my heads/cam/intake over to a different block. My local machine shop put my previous setup together years ago.

I wanted to verify the cam was installed correctly, so a few youtubes later I'm an expert right? Cam is a the stump puller on a 114LSA. ICL at 109.

Here is my post on FB for some picture.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1612...omment_mention

My local shop wrote their numbers down on the cam card when they degreed the cam. 150 and 70 = 220 / 110 deg.

I had the heads on and was using a piston stop. I cam up with the same 150 but 73 for my other, thus my number came up to 111.5 deg. Using the intake centerline method taking measurement in the clockwise rotation. The timing chain does have a small amount of slack.

On the cam card the local shop wrote "crank 4deg Ret". That is correct that was how it came off the old motor and went back on the new to me motor.

So 2 questions and this is really bothering me.

1. On the cam card the engine builder also wrote "Cam key 11+ Advanced" What the heck does this mean? How is it relevant to degreeing the cam? Is it maybe referring to an offset key on the cam? I didn't see one, but wasn't looking either. Maybe referring to ground in advance? That would be 109-114 that would 5 deg. IDK.

2.. I'm tempted to tear back into it and change the crank sprocket to strait up and remeasure. IS the +4/-4 on the crank sprocket equal to what I should see at the lifter? Meaning if I was at 111.5 and move to the strait up mark should I be at 107.5? That too much?


I found this in the Archives. Not sure where my 114 LSA falls into this discussion.
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=degree+cam

Thanks for any help.

[Gary H]

I have found that variations in measurements when degreeing a camshaft is primarily caused by the dial indicator not being "square" or " parallel " with the valve, or not having a flat surface to place the dial indicator stem tip on the valve retainer. Those two items can cause issues trying to get an accurate, repeatable measurement. Regarding the +4. Most cam manufacturers are adding 4 degrees advance in when grinding the cam. It will generally say that on the cam card by stating the cam grind number followed by +4. Lastly, if you use the +4 keyway and marks on the timing gear, it should advance the cam 4 degrees. Naturally, it needs to be verified by degreeing the camshaft in.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Gary H

I have found that variations in measurements when degreeing a camshaft is primarily caused by the dial indicator not being "square" or " parallel " with the valve, or not having a flat surface to place the dial indicator stem tip on the valve retainer. Those two items can cause issues trying to get an accurate, repeatable measurement. Regarding the +4. Most cam manufacturers are adding 4 degrees advance in when grinding the cam. It will generally say that on the cam card by stating the cam grind number followed by +4. Lastly, if you use the +4 keyway and marks on the timing gear, it should advance the cam 4 degrees. Naturally, it needs to be verified by degreeing the camshaft in.

I think I did ok on that. I had my lifter in place with a pushrod. I used the CC degree kit. I had the setup screwed into the rocker stud with the the guide plate installed. There was no movement of the plunger.

Did the FB link work? There is a picture of the cam card there. I see that there is a Part# and a Serial# The serial number: v 9054-11. Maybe that -11 is where they got the 11 deg Advanced? Regardless do I even car about that number? I'm still trying to hit the 109 ICL correct? And advance or retard is from that reference.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Gary H

I have found that variations in measurements when degreeing a camshaft is primarily caused by the dial indicator not being "square" or " parallel " with the valve, or not having a flat surface to place the dial indicator stem tip on the valve retainer. Those two items can cause issues trying to get an accurate, repeatable measurement. Regarding the +4. Most cam manufacturers are adding 4 degrees advance in when grinding the cam. It will generally say that on the cam card by stating the cam grind number followed by +4. Lastly, if you use the +4 keyway and marks on the timing gear, it should advance the cam 4 degrees. Naturally, it needs to be verified by degreeing the camshaft in.

I need to circle back to a previous question about if this cam has built in advance? If its on the cam card I'm not seeing it.
If it does, what is the purpose of built in advance and how does it related to degreeing the cam?

As for the other post. All great information on the math and double checking the degreeing process. I'm learning lot.



I would have no issue buying a Mellings cam but I wouldn't have any way to adjust it. And as with life my best option is also the most expensive. It does look like a nice chain and I know its the one that the Simms unit is based off.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain


Given all that If my mearsurent is correct at 111.5
and if I move the crank sprocket to the strait up
I will be at 107.5 and thus just 1.5 deg off the mark
To me this seem more ideal as long as I don't get into a detonation issue.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by rohrt

I need to circle back to a previous question about if this cam has built in advance? If its on the cam card I'm not seeing it.
If it does, what is the purpose of built in advance and how does it related to degreeing the cam?

As for the other post. All great information on the math and double checking the degreeing process. I'm learning lot.



I would have no issue buying a Mellings cam but I wouldn't have any way to adjust it. And as with life my best option is also the most expensive. It does look like a nice chain and I know its the one that the Simms unit is based off.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...timing%2Bchain


Given all that If my mearsurent is correct at 111.5
and if I move the crank sprocket to the strait up
I will be at 107.5 and thus just 1.5 deg off the mark
To me this seem more ideal as long as I don't get into a detonation issue.

The cam card will tell you if the camshaft has advance ground in it. For example if the LSA is 112, look at the ICL on the card. If it says 108 then the cam has 4 degrees of advance ground into the lobes. Theoretically if you just install the cam "straight up" dot to dot, it should have 4 degrees of advance, but that's not always the case. Keyways on cranks and camshafts are not always perfect, the cam is not always ground perfect, the keyways on the sprockets of the timing chain being used are not always perfect. All of these things can amount to "stacked tolerances" and really skew the intake centerline install position. That is why it's always wise to degree the camshaft and check. 9 out of 10 times the cam will not be where you think it should be. It's a time consuming process but it has to be done.

Advancing a little more is not a bad thing. There are a couple schools of thought on that as far as lobe position and detonation. I prefer and have had great success with Paul's method but that's another discussion and I don't know anything about your build.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

. I prefer and have had great success with Paul's method but that's another discussion and I don't know anything about your build.

Well ya done opened the box now. What is this method about to which you speak of?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by rohrt

Well ya done opened the box now. What is this method about to which you speak of?

LOL

What Paul does with his builds is advance the camshaft until the intake lobe lift is about .035-.040" higher than the exhaust lobe at TDC overlap stroke.

His theory, that I've tried on a few engines now and found it works, is that at TDC overlap when the piston starts down the bore it pulls more on the intake valve this way, which isn't pulling in the super hot gasses "as much" from the exhaust valve and creates a cooler combustion process as the piston comes back up on the compression stroke.

The only issue with this method is that it's tough to get there on really wide lobe separation camshafts. So if you use a cam with 112 or 114 LSA, you likely won't reach those numbers. You can get part of the way there, but not all the way without going to a ridiculous amount of advance.

On the 114 LSA cams I've done for instance, I've gone as far as about 107 ICL install position and found about .025" higher on the intake lobe on TDC overlap stroke. So not quite .035-.040" that Paul shoots for, but better than not at all. I didn't bother to push the ICL any tighter on those camshafts.

In fact as an experiment I did this on my 400 RAIII with iron 12 heads and the 068 cam running 10.13:1 compression and it's been running great on 91 octane for several years on the street and with a lot of track abuse.

This method is a lot easier to obtain on camshafts with 110 LSA or tighter.

[25stevem]

I use a lifter that comes with a degree kit set up which helps a bunch.
As noted in the above the dial indicator must be set up perpendicular in both planes.

The lifter needs to be lubed with a very light oil, such that almost no pressure from the dial indicator is needed to have it follow the cam lobe with total accuracy on the closing side .

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

I use a lifter that comes with a degree kit set up which helps a bunch.
As noted in the above the dial indicator must be set up perpendicular in both planes.

The lifter needs to be lubed with a very light oil, such that almost no pressure from the dial indicator is needed to have it follow the cam lobe with total accuracy on the closing side .

I feel pretty confident I got this part right. I did hit same closing 150 number as the machine shop just not the same opening number 70.

I'm concerned I'm leaving a fair amount of lower RPM power on the table at the 4 deg ret crank sprocket setting. I never felt it had the low end grunt to live up to the stump puller name. Above 3500 it pulls hard though.

Reading that other post I linked seems to make sense to change the crank sprocket to strait up.

[Dragncar]

Great tool. Eliminates some potential variables which is always a good thing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...38?seid=srese2

[Gach]

wanted to verify the cam was installed correctly, so a few youtubes later I'm an expert right? Cam is a the stump puller on a 114LSA. ICL at 109.

Most likely the timing chain has stretched that reason for the 111 if you put in a new timing chain, most likely it will come in at 109. Most likely cam is designed to end up with timing chain stretch at 111 or 112 which should still be 2-4 degrees advance.

PS: no worries you did a good job on degree it in.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

To just reinforce what’s mentioned in post 2 here, many cams are made with 4 degrees of advance ground in to cover for normal and eventual chain stretch.

Even so what do I do with that information? The cam card says install at 109 ICL. Is that so when you install the timing set strait up it will install at 105 and then chain stretch would get it closer to 109?

Originally Posted by Gach

Most likely the timing chain has stretched that reason for the 111 if you put in a new timing chain, most likely it will come in at 109. Most likely cam is designed to end up with timing chain stretch at 111 or 112 which should still be 2-4 degrees advance.

PS: no worries you did a good job on degree it in.

Thanks for that although it may be undeserved.

I would tend to agree with ya, however I got the same number as the machine shop with 150 closing.

The question still remains should I re-set the crank sprocket to 0? The cam is current a few deg ret as measured. Seems like I would be better off a few deg advanced.

[25stevem]

To just reinforce what’s mentioned in post 2 here, many cams are made with 4 degrees of advance ground in to cover for normal and eventual chain stretch.

[Stan Weiss]

Where are you measuring 150 at?

The cam has a 114 LSA and the cam card wants a 109 ICL

Using intake 6 BTDC and 44 ABDC will have you at 109 ICL

Stan

[Gach]

Personally I would leave it, right were it is. Usually advancing the Cam picks up bottom end, seat of the pants and a chance of picking up ET, maybe, but top end usually suffers. Show it’s a trial and error thing. But if it’s a nice street cruiser I doubt your going to notice much of a difference. I mean you can try it at zero and see what you end up with.

Most of the factory cams were on a 114 , so cam company’s knew advancing them along with a little more intake and exhaust duration would definitely make more hp. They also knew the heads was the restriction.

So basically even though they say 109, they Knew with Timeing chain stretch, it’ll end up at 111-112. What their banking on is the opening and closing…change that to much and it’s going to effect cylinder filling.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Where are you measuring 150 at?

The cam has a 114 LSA and the cam card wants a 109 ICL

Using intake 6 BTDC and 44 ABDC will have you at 109 ICL

Stan

Measured at .050 down from both side of the max lift of the intake lobe.

Basically followed the same method Fast Monte used as instructed by Buttler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKpk64KWqag&t=992s

Originally Posted by Gach

Personally I would leave it, right were it is. Usually advancing the Cam picks up bottom end, seat of the pants and a chance of picking up ET, maybe, but top end usually suffers. Show it’s a trial and error thing. But if it’s a nice street cruiser I doubt your going to notice much of a difference. I mean you can try it at zero and see what you end up with.

Most of the factory cams were on a 114 , so cam company’s knew advancing them along with a little more intake and exhaust duration would definitely make more hp. They also knew the heads was the restriction.

So basically even though they say 109, they Knew with Timeing chain stretch, it’ll end up at 111-112. What their banking on is the opening and closing…change that to much and it’s going to effect cylinder filling.

Well I know how it drives as is and it does lack bottom end torq. I had to put in a 10 Continental converter to unlock the power. So advancing seems preferable to me given its a street car. It want to pull well past 5500 and it still has stock rods

[Gach]

Well you know your car better then anyone else put in at Zero and see what you come up with, see how much it advances. I’d be interested to see how much.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by rohrt

Measured at .050 down from both side of the max lift of the intake lobe.

Basically followed the same method Fast Monte used as instructed by Buttler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKpk64KWqag&t=992s

Why not try using the 0.050" lift numbers on the cam card which Comp Cams said to use?

Stan

[Cliff R]

The only thing those 3 keyway roller chain sets are good for is to practice my hook shot to the trash can over by the shop door. If you are going to run a bicycle chain on the front of your engine at least get one with billet sprockets and 9 keyways so you can accurately move the cam timing around........FWIW.......

[Half-Inch Stud]

I think the Intake Opening event is subjective when going by Degree-wheel readings:
ILC from IO to IC gives a Measured result BUT, i think there needs to be a bias on the number so you know the ILC might effectively be an effectively advanced value above the measured value.
I always assume non-symmetric lobes.

While in there; Try for 2 types of ILCs based on "onset of Opening/closing, and 0.005" lift for ILC. Oh sure 0.050" values could be an3rd basis but not as defining the Idle result as 0.005".

Same goes for Exhaust ELC from EO to EC, but sooo less critical.

My last Cam Degree activity was fraught with looseness from every possible non-fixturing frustration. And the 14" dia degree wheel in 1* toothed increments magnified my lack of accuracy. I gave up and sold the ( Spare ) engine with explanation of the degree activity.
Was easier 40 to 30 years ago, when i was not sweating the precision details.