[mgarblik]

When we raced the Grocery Getter and Boss Bird, we were sponsored by Valvoline. One of the cool things about that was we were assigned a senior chemical engineer at Ashland Oil, (parent company) to work with us. He did mention more than once the CORRECT amount of ZDDP was the important factor in engine wear, not just putting a huge amount in there. He wanted us to run their production lubricants, although he was willing to custom blend race oils for us if needed. It never was. In the little article, I like the statement about running the correct oil for the application. But in reality, with most of our Pontiacs, the miles they are driven, and the fairly low load and RPM they see, any quality oil, kept clean and changed will work just fine after break-in. JMO

[tjs72lemans]

Many of my hot rods I've owned for 40 years with flat tappet cams I've run Valvoline 10-40 and never an issue. My Fiat Spider, I ran Rotella diesel 15-40 oil, as that is what the Fiat guys push. My Pontiac I started with 10-40 Brad Penn and then switched to Driven 10-40, since that is what my engine builder suggested. I asked why the Driven oil stays so clean looking compared to my Valvoline? He said the Valvoline type oils keep contaminants suspended in oil, while Drive oil, the contaminants lay in the bottom of oil pan. I learn new things on oil here and other places I had no idea about. I'm no engineer.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Lack of proper detergents is why I got away from desiel oils in a gas engine decades ago. Same reason I stopped using the Valvoline racing oils too.
Oils like that need more frequent change intervals. I sure hope guys using it are not trying to extend change intervals. Nevermind zddp, people forget about the rest of the additive package.

Speaking of which, how many here actually send in used oil samples for an oil analysis to actually know for sure what that oil is doing for you??

I still have about 30 of the white "Oil Analysis" kits that we used to have shipped to the BP Engineers. I still keep bare Valve Guides in the containers today. Once a month all 6 engines oil was sampled and sent to BP for our durability engines.

Tom V.

[turbo69bird]

Haven’t read all these posts but I will say I’ve run diesel oil in my turbocharged 2 bolt main, cast factory crank, eagle rods Pontiac running 9s since I built this engine in about 2006 was the last freshen to check bearings. It’s still running strong today and I haven’t even changed a spark plug in it.
So I feel the diesel oil has done pretty well for me so far.

Ran rotella T most of the time.

[Dragncar]

I do not thinks its that big a deal. The most important thing about your oil is picking one with the right viscosity for your needs and changing it regularly. I have run all kinds of oils. No oil is going to make or break you. Run Dello a lot these days.
Never hurt a engine. They make oils rated for gas and diesel engines too.
Years ago we broke in cams with non detergent 30T and EOS or STP all over the cam. never had a issue.
Maybe the big problem is not zinc, its the butter lifters they are selling us.

[Peckels]

I have run 15/40 diesel oils for the past twenty years. using flat solid and flat hydraulic cams. never any problems.

[chrisp]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Haven’t read all these posts but I will say I’ve run diesel oil in my turbocharged 2 bolt main, cast factory crank, eagle rods Pontiac running 9s since I built this engine in about 2006 was the last freshen to check bearings. It’s still running strong today and I haven’t even changed a spark plug in it.
So I feel the diesel oil has done pretty well for me so far.

Ran rotella T most of the time.

461 kauffman heads full roller 500hp strong since 2010 rotella T5 10/30 still spinning.

[Tom Vaught]

Seems to be a lot of Diesel Oil users using the 15/40 oil in their flat tappet engines
had zero issues over many years of usage.

I will continue to go by Excellent Technical Advice, and Facts (vs opinions or advertisements).

Tom V.

[The Champ]

Tom

You appear to claim that opinions given in support of using oil (see above) designed for diesel engines is fact.

I posted this for informational purposes, not to piss anyone off. It isn't an advertisement or an opinion. It's an article about oil from someone who's job it is to formulate oil.

You can choose to use whatever oil you want.

[Sirrotica]

I've never intermingled the two oils by usage, and have had excellent longevity of my own engines.

I really don't think a car that sees 10,000 miles in 10 years is going to show up minor differences in chemistry because in that 10,000 miles it's probably had at least 10 oil changes. Take that oil and run it in a daily driver at 6,000-10,000 mile oil changes, and it's possible you'll see disadvantages to running it long term, over the life of a car.

They make different oils for a reason, if one oil covered many uses adequately, then why would the manufacturers make different oils, for different applications?

It's the exact same argument I get if I mention by pass oil filters, that the oil is usually run low miles before it's changed, so in their mind, better filtration isn't necessary. I don't agree with that assessment, but although it's not as efficient as superior filtration. Frequent oil changes are going to flush the sump of the particulate that is left in the oil that will physically keep passing through a conventional full flow filter, but would be caught on the first pass with a by pass filter.

In my mind the oil type/brand needs to be the correct viscosity, have a good additive package, and have a good detergent package. The filtration to a standard much finer than the OEM system is capable of makes more difference than what type/brand of oil you're running. Especially if you're changing it a 1000 mile intervals.

Because my father was a mechanic, and started wrenching back before every car had a oil filter, the oil change intervals were 1000 miles, even after the modern oils and filters were commonplace, Dad continued to change oil and filters every 1000 miles, and the engines were clean as could be, because of the constant flushing with fresh oil.

I however don't like changing oil frequently, and think it's a waste of time and money. My alternative is a by pass oil filter, which is superior to the 1000 mile oil changes, and I run my oil for 30-40,000 miles and as much as 5 year intervals. There is definitely more than one way to get engine longevity, but flushing it with fresh oil is more expensive, more labor intensive, and not as efficient as removing small particulate as soon as it is in the oil, rather than letting it recirculate until fresh oil is introduced.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by tjs72lemans

Many of my hot rods I've owned for 40 years with flat tappet cams I've run Valvoline 10-40 and never an issue. My Fiat Spider, I ran Rotella diesel 15-40 oil, as that is what the Fiat guys push. My Pontiac I started with 10-40 Brad Penn and then switched to Driven 10-40, since that is what my engine builder suggested. I asked why the Driven oil stays so clean looking compared to my Valvoline? He said the Valvoline type oils keep contaminants suspended in oil, while Drive oil, the contaminants lay in the bottom of oil pan. I learn new things on oil here and other places I had no idea about. I'm no engineer.

Detergent oils keep dirt and contaminants suspended in the oil, so that they get drained out of the engine with an oil change. Resulting in a clean, gum-free engine. Non-detergent oils of yesteryear don't, and the dirt and contaminants settle into nooks and crannies and the bottom of the pan. An oil drain leaves them there. Have serviced and worked on many, many engines that ran non-detergent oils back in the day, and they were always a gooey, encrusted mess internally. I seriously doubt that the new Driven oil is non-detergent, but I could be wrong. I would not run ANY non-detergent oil in an any engine I cared about. Brad is right about the by-pass filter, they flat-out work, but most don't want to bother plumbing one into the system for whatever reason.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

. Brad is right about the by-pass filter, they flat-out work, but most don't want to bother plumbing one into the system for whatever reason.

Yes, there is no arguing bypass filters work. I don't think anyone here has ever said otherwise. But the reason you're wondering why most don't bother plumbing them in are actually more simple. Being a classic car forum, the majority don't want or can't have that system hanging off the car. It's honestly just not something most can or are willing to do. Most of the restorations I do the customers would be appalled if I even suggested something like that.
Couple that with the fact that most don't drive these cars much more than a couple thousand miles a year at the most anyway, it's just not an absolute necessity.
The by-pass setup is a great system where they make the most sense.

Now if they made something very small and compact and very easy to hide so it's completely out of site, more classic car owners would jump on board. As far as I know there isn't such a system and probably never will be since they generally don't market these things for the classic car world.

On the other hand, if one were to do an oil analysis as I suggested earlier, you could find that optimum oil/filter package and change interval that works best and extend those oil changes to a safe interval and save some money that way, so you aren't changing the oil as frequently and unnecessarily.

That's exactly what I did years ago in an attempt to find a longer safe change interval as my car habit grew, because as mentioned above, it's really not practical to be under the car every 1000 miles changing oil. That's a lot of time and money spent, especially when you have multiple cars. An oil analysis will tell you when it's time, and which brands of oils or filters are working best. It's honestly the next best solution.

[Jay S]

Detergents tend to strip the zinc and Phos off metals. That is why most break in oils are non-detergent oil, and why racing Oils tend to have less detergent. Oil designed for Diesel’s are meant to run with older and newer equipment. The older equipment with mech. injection pumps does not like high detergent because it is hard on the injection pump. On the other side of that, zinc levels were lowered in Diesel oils a few years back when OEM’s started using EGR’s and cats. Higher zinc is not friendly for those. They found other additives the fill those gaps when the zinc levels were lowered. For a gas engine, more or less detergent isn’t necessarily a bad thing, depend on what you doing with your engine. If the oil claim’s “extended milage”, chance are it is really high in detergent. If it is a racing oil it is likely the opposite. It is hard to beat testing the oil to see if it is doing it job.

[78w72]

i will leave the dead horse bypass filter thing alone, FJ pretty much summed it up as to why classic cars or 99% of daily drivers dont use them. they do work & have their purpose mainly in semi trucks or fleet vehicles that do hundred thousand miles a year etc.

passenger cars today have far better designed engines & oils are so much better than even 20 years ago let alone 40-50. modern cars will easily go to 200k miles with standard filters & oil changes at 5000-7500 miles, not 1000. many foreign cars & some american go to 300k+ miles, there are toyotas with 400-500k miles on the original engines using standard filters... one recently was documented at 1 million miles & was still running good before they tore the engine apart & showed the internals were in good shape & capable of running more. most cars will fall apart before the engine dies because of using a standard filter. my argument about bypass filters on classic or modern cars is that they arent needed or practical, the manufacturers have figured out how to get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their engines.

for diesel oil, most brands are or were dual rated with passenger car API ratings as well as diesel ratings. they are fine to use in either engine but tailored more for diesel with the lower detergents etc etc. zddp usually runs in the 1000-1200 range based on recent virgin oil analyses posted at bobistheoilguy, most current passenger car oils are 900+ppm zddp, along with other modern anti wear additives they will do fine with most stock or "street" type already broken in cams/springs. that article touched on new advanced zddp formulas, valvoline has stated they use a longer lasting zddp so not as much is needed like the older oils, oils also have modern additives like moly that make up for lower zddp, as mentioned, you dont need super high levels today like most people think based on old oil technology. oils claim to be backwards compatible with any previous API rating, just because they are a little lower on zddp than the old oils doesnt mean they need a bunch of an additive poured in or VR1 type racing oils for a stock cam or even a popular ~.420-.480 lift cam once broken in right. id be more concerned with the quality of the china metal cam/lifters than a good name brand oil.

keep in mind there are millions of flat tappet cam engines on the road today using standard oils with zero oil related cam/lifter issues. i just sold my jeep cherokee with the 4.0 inline 6 engine, i ran whatever oil was on sale or usually walmart supertech with a cheap spin on filter... i drove that pretty hard & towed frequently with less than perfect oil change intervals, owned it for 17 years & never had any oil/filter problems, sold it at 200k miles 3 years ago & still see it driving around town today!

[P@blo]

Why do these topics always get steered towards the "bypass filtration" discussion? Can we just start one bypass filtration thread with the same 3-4 guys posting there instead of beating this dead horse forever? Same guys beating the same drum...

Yes you can catch a few flys this way but but it is really not on topic and kills good discussions. And I am still waiting to see a modern oil study, on a gasoline engine, under normal operating conditions proving the bypass system does what you guys are so quick to claim.

There is just to little ROI

[Formulajones]

I don't claim anything with it as I've never used it and I don't promote the system, but you can find oil analysis with by-pass filtration systems in place all over the internet if you really want to see how well they work. Many from various oil companies if you don't trust individual tests.
I'm sure Sirrotica would be glad to post some as I'm sure he has to be doing his own oil analysis. At least I would hope so for as much as he claims they work for him, because the only way to know for sure is an oil analysis.

I honestly have no use for the by-pass system though. Yeah it does work, but has no place in the classic car world as far as I'm concerned or anyone is concerned that I've done work for. It's an interesting subject that a lot of people haven't been made aware of, but not something you're going to sell to the millions of classic car owners.

I think as long as we are around and still driving these old cars, we'll have oil discussions. Oil is an ever changing industry and this stuff isn't getting any cheaper either.

[Formulajones]

Just for giggles related to the original post on diesel oil.

Amsoil actually makes a high zinc oil that is multipurpose and compatible with diesel and gas engines. This formulation is made for heavy duty use and states works well with flat tappet camshafts specifically with higher tension valve springs.

Anyway, for those that don't want to lube their gas engines with diesel oil, here's one oil advertised for use in both.

https://www.amsoil.com/p/premium-pro...-motor-oil-aro

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Just for giggles related to the original post on diesel oil.

Amsoil actually makes a high zinc oil that is multipurpose and compatible with diesel and gas engines. This formulation is made for heavy duty use and states works well with flat tappet camshafts specifically with higher tension valve springs.

Anyway, for those that don't want to lube their gas engines with diesel oil, here's one oil advertised for use in both.

https://www.amsoil.com/p/premium-pro...-motor-oil-aro

most diesel oils are rated/designed for 4 stroke gasoline & diesel engines. amsoil is one but the other popular brands specifically state they are rated & Ok to use in gasoline engines, delo, rotella, valvoline etc etc, they all state they meet specs for both & are perfectly fine to use in either type of engine.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en...ae-15w-40.html

im sure theres some merit to that article but it seems to focus on the "higher rpm" use of gasoline engines or race situations... 99% of the time a gasoline street car is operating below ~2500-3000 rpm. diesel oils can be used in a gasoline engine with zero problems since most are rated for that purpose.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

most diesel oils are rated/designed for 4 stroke gasoline & diesel engines. amsoil is one but the other popular brands specifically state they are rated & Ok to use in gasoline engines, delo, rotella, valvoline etc etc, they all state they meet specs for both & are perfectly fine to use in either type of engine.

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en...ae-15w-40.html

im sure theres some merit to that article but it seems to focus on the "higher rpm" use of gasoline engines or race situations... 99% of the time a gasoline street car is operating below ~2500-3000 rpm. diesel oils can be used in a gasoline engine with zero problems since most are rated for that purpose.

Yep, that's why I posted it. I just find it interesting more than anything else

[track73]

A long time ago I read where toilet paper filters did too good of a job and took out a lot of the additives in the oil along with the dirt.