[steve25]

Here's something that I have wondered about for a while, that being what might the reason be for the disappearance of the 350 4 bbl option after 1969?

It seems the 4 bbl option on the 350 does not show back up up until 1974 with that years GTO, and the whole motor goes away understandably after 76 with the introduction of the 301 motor.

Was it just that some many 400 4 bbl motors where being sold that Pontiac thought that such a 350 option was a waste of factory time?

Does the 350 4 bbl showing back up in 74 point to the effects of the gas crisis and how the 400 and 455 where starting to be viewed, or how the sales of body styles with those motors where heading?

[ponyakr]

Yeah, since the same iron Q-jet intake fit all the Pontiac 350, 400, 428, & 455 engines, of the same year model, it would have been no problem at all to offer a 4 barrel 350. Maybe they only offered the 2 barrel so that they could use really low performance parts in the rest of the engine. Probably wanted to make the base engine option as cheap as possible, to increase the sales of base model cars.

Pontiac did a lot of things that didn't make a whole lot of sense.

How about building some of the forged piston engines, with cast rods.

And, some pretty strong engines also had cast pistons.

And using press-in rocker arm studs, on ANY engine. How dumb is that ?

I suppose it was all done to save a few bucks, so that they could sell 'em cheaper and/or make more profit.

If that is not the case, then we have to assume that there were some really dumb guys making these decisions.

[Schurkey]

It doesn't take much of an engine to keep Soccer Mom or Grandpa happy. They've been trained to care more about whether it starts reliably than whether it's "exciting" to drive.

This leads to a spiral of cost-cutting. Cheap engines sell in higher quantity than expensive, high-performance engines. Which means that the folks in charge make the assumption that MORE cost-cutting will lead to MORE sales. People get their expectations lowered, so they're primed to accept garbage because "they're all that way". Cycle repeats.

We see the same thinking in the Chinese imports--manufacturers perpetually cut cost and quality, and consumers--convinced there's no real alternative in a sea of Chinese merchandise--buy the crap anyway. They've been trained to accept low-budget crap even when quality alternatives exist--because the low-budget crap gets most of the advertising.

[dmac]

I don't think adding a four barrel would have added much performance capability to the low compression motors., especially at the low rpm they were made for.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by dmac

I don't think adding a four barrel would have added much performance capability to the low compression motors., especially at the low rpm they were made for.

Guessing that a properly calibrated & tuned Q-jet would have added quite a bit of power, with no other changes.

Hey, some of the 301 engines came with an 800 cfm capable Q-jet. I figure it made more power than the 2 barrel version.

No, neither the low CR 350's nor 301's made big power, even with a Q-jet.

But the low CR 400's weren't real spunky either. The mid to late 70's was not a period of big factory horsepower.

Only plus I can think of for the low power Q-jet equipped Pontiac engines is that some combinations make real competitive Stock & SS drag cars. Quite a few class winners & national record holders ran(and run) some of those combos. For this thread, the '74 GTO comes to mind. No tellin how many times a '74 GTO has reset the nat record for the class they were running. The '77 350 is also competitive in Stock & SS. And yeah, I know this is the street section & nobody wants racing mentioned. So, any who I've offended will just have to get over it.

[formula kid]

If you look at 1974, the base v8 on the Pontiac line is the 350 2bbl single exhaust 155 hp. That was on the Esprit. The 350 2bb duel exhaust in the Formula was 170hp. The 350 4bbl single exhaust is rated at 170 hp. The 350 4bbl duel exhaust was 200 hp that was the GTO. The 350 engine had a compression ratio of 7.6:1 in all engines. The 400 Engine compression was 8.0:1. The 400 2 bbl with single exhaust is 175 hp. So the change from 350 to 400 in the same car is 20 hp. The 400 2 bbl duel exhaust is 190 hp, again 50 cid increase is 20 hp. The 400 4bbl duel exhaust is 225 hp so again a change of 50 cid and no other change is 25 hp. There were 3 other engine available in 74 a 455 4 bbl single exhaust, 455 with 4 bbl duel exhaust, and the SD- 455 top dog.

[242177P]

The answer has a lot to do with the stickers they started using in '68...

[242177P]

Originally Posted by formula kid

If you look at 1974, the base v8 on the Pontiac line is the 350 2bbl single exhaust 155 hp. That was on the Esprit. The 350 2bb duel exhaust in the Formula was 170hp. The 350 4bbl single exhaust is rated at 170 hp. The 350 4bbl duel exhaust was 200 hp that was the GTO. The 350 engine had a compression ratio of 7.6:1 in all engines. The 400 Engine compression was 8.0:1. The 400 2 bbl with single exhaust is 175 hp. So the change from 350 to 400 in the same car is 20 hp. The 400 2 bbl duel exhaust is 190 hp, again 50 cid increase is 20 hp. The 400 4bbl duel exhaust is 225 hp so again a change of 50 cid and no other change is 25 hp. There were 3 other engine available in 74 a 455 4 bbl single exhaust, 455 with 4 bbl duel exhaust, and the SD- 455 top dog.

In 1970, you could finally get a 400 in a LeMans.

[steve25]

I don't get what your trying to link up here with that 68 era sticker in regards to the discussion here of the 70 to 74 of the 350 motor?

Interestingly the 220 hp rated 74 GTO 350 motor is the same HP rating given to the top HP 400 cid rating in the 78 and 79 TA.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by steve25

I don't get what your trying to link up here with that 68 era sticker in regards to the discussion here of the 70 to 74 of the 350 motor?

Interestingly the 220 hp rated 74 GTO 350 motor is the same HP rating given to the top HP 400 cid rating in the 78 and 79 TA.

Sigh. Engine combos had to be certified. Different carb? Jump through these hoops.
Different transmission? Jump through these hoops. Ever wonder why the SD455 didn't
have a functional shaker while the GTO did? Because... more hoops.

Oh, and the 74 GTO wasn't *rated* at 220 hp.

[steve25]

Oh, ok!

What's even more strange about the SD455 not having that functional scoop is that those motors where designed before the 455 HO motors which all had the functional scoop !

[dmac]

Originally Posted by formula kid

If you look at 1974, the base v8 on the Pontiac line is the 350 2bbl single exhaust 155 hp. That was on the Esprit. The 350 2bb duel exhaust in the Formula was 170hp. The 350 4bbl single exhaust is rated at 170 hp. The 350 4bbl duel exhaust was 200 hp that was the GTO. The 350 engine had a compression ratio of 7.6:1 in all engines. The 400 Engine compression was 8.0:1. The 400 2 bbl with single exhaust is 175 hp. So the change from 350 to 400 in the same car is 20 hp. The 400 2 bbl duel exhaust is 190 hp, again 50 cid increase is 20 hp. The 400 4bbl duel exhaust is 225 hp so again a change of 50 cid and no other change is 25 hp. There were 3 other engine available in 74 a 455 4 bbl single exhaust, 455 with 4 bbl duel exhaust, and the SD- 455 top dog.

And all vehicles had the same cam? I learn something new even as an old man almost daily. Thank you

[242177P]

Originally Posted by steve25

Oh, ok!

What's even more strange about the SD455 not having that functional scoop is that those motors where designed before the 455 HO motors which all had the functional scoop !

Yep. The SD455 was supposed to get a solenoid activated flapper. Government
noise regulations killed it.

389/400 were Pontiac's bread and butter, but in hindsight, I kinda wish they
paid a little more attention to the 326/350. More development of the short deck
could have been a real game changer for Pontiac Motor Division.

The 301T in a Third Gen had potential.

[formula kid]

In 1974 the highest HP for a 350 cid engine was 200 net HP. The engine codes for the 350 4bbl engine were WN, WP, YN, YP, YS, and ZP. The GTO was rated 200 HP in 74.
















































hp

[steve25]

There was a 366 cid motor under concideration for a while to be the standard power plant across all the body lines!

Myself I am happy that such a motor did not bring a end to the 400!

Depending where you look the 74 GTO can be 200 hp, or 220 as installed in that one peticular body type.

[formula kid]

I have never seen the hp rating for the 350 4 bbl as 220 hp. Pontiac Heavy- Duty parts and specs H. O Racing Specialties, Inc page 30 1974 show 170/200 WN, WP manual transmission YN, YP, YS and ZP automatic transmission. Chilton’s auto repair manual 1976. Covers American card from 1969 to 1976. Aster. Firebird. Grand Am. GTO. LeMans. Tempest. Ventura. Sunbird page C60 general engine specifications 74 8-350 DE carburetor type 4 bbl 200@4000 torque 295@2800. I do not understand where you are getting 220 hp for that engine. So 200 hp on a 350 with 7.6 compression in the GTO and the Firebird Formula and Trans am with the 400 is rated at 225 hp with a hotter cam, and 8. 0-1 compression. Wallace racing shows the GTO as 200 hp and the 066 cam. The 400 4bbl 225 hp with the 067 cam.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Yep. The SD455 was supposed to get a solenoid activated flapper. Government
noise regulations killed it.

389/400 were Pontiac's bread and butter, but in hindsight, I kinda wish they
paid a little more attention to the 326/350. More development of the short deck
could have been a real game changer for Pontiac Motor Division.

The 301T in a Third Gen had potential.

My brother has a 84 Bird and there are mounting holes for a 301 still in the car.
A 461 is going it it. Some of my old parts . Had a 9" and a 3 link, should be fun.

[steve25]

You are all correct for stating that the 74 GTO 350 motor was only 200 hp and not the 220 hp that I have been posting about.

My info sheet has printing flaw on it that makes the listing look like 220" but when I shine a flash light thru that side of the page and view it from the other side you can make out that it's 200.

Thanks to you all for the light chewing out on this!

[455Grandville]

Pretty sure the 350 stuck around till 1977; I have one on a pallet came out of a ‘77 Bonneville that I think was original to the car.

Originally Posted by 242177P

The 301T in a Third Gen had potential.

We’re those 301 turbos that bad at blowing up ? I’ve got a couple I inherited from my brother that he wanted to put in his 81 Catalina to replace the 265 V8.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Pretty sure the 350 stuck around till 1977; I have one on a pallet came out of a ‘77 Bonneville that I think was original to the car.



We’re those 301 turbos that bad at blowing up ? I’ve got a couple I inherited from my brother that he wanted to put in his 81 Catalina to replace the 265 V8.

I have a 77 Firebird parts car with a 3504bbl