[turbo69bird]

Question about then 7355 in 69 was used on the RAIV firebird which obviously was a high compression .was it internally differnt than the other 7355s? More like an 8353? Thanks for info .

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Mister Pontiac

I suppose it also depends on what you're operating as to what starter you need/want.

Like most of you, over the years I have run everything from original factory starters, heat shields and wraps, Napa "Gold" Solenoids, remote solenoids, mini high torque units, etc... All with varying degrees of success around stock manifolds, factory headers and traditional headers.

This may sound almost sacrilegious, but for my daily street driven (read, largely stock) 400/428/455 powered engines, I run the AutoZone DL 3555 units.

They are listed as a "premium remanufactured unit" on the website, but whatever they are doing now during a rebuild, it's quite impressive! They spin every bit as fast and strong as my mini starters do, and they seem to last forever. I live and operate them year round in the desert heat here in Phoenix, and have yet to have a complaint.

My 72 LeMans GT 455 has had one for 20,000+ miles now with no hint of a problem. I installed another one in my 71 GTO a month ago after the (unknown) unit on the car finally died. This new one spins even faster than the last one I bought, even in our 100 degree heat these days. The 74 Bonneville has had one for a few years now, and I'm planning yet another one for my 67 428 powered wagon soon as it's original unit is on its last legs.

They look and install just like the factory starters. They've recently gone up in price due to inflation ($80 now vs $60 a couple years ago), but still seems inexpensive to me for what you get.

Another benefit for me is I can always find one in stock at one of the stores in the metro area on any given day. That's important to me as I drive the cars all the time and don't like them to sit down for any length of time. Also, should I ever have an issue, I can take it back to AZ and likely get some amount of credit toward another one. Of course I haven't had to do that yet, which is another reminder why I'm happy.

Just throwing another idea in the ring. Hope that helps someone.

Mini starters spin the engine over slower than factory type. They are gear reduction.
I lost 20lbs in a compression test just going to a mini starter. But they start your engine great. Headers cook factory starters is the reason so many buy mini starters.

[turbo69bird]

How clockable are those MSD starters for $96? That’s a sweet deal woukd buy one tomorrow if they can be clocked

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

How clockable are those MSD starters for $96? That’s a sweet deal woukd buy one tomorrow if they can be clocked

They have an instruction sheet. Maybe it will help

https://documents.holley.com/5097.pdf

[Gach]

This is probably more then most would want to pay for a starter but I’ve run my Tilton starter for 25 years. Various different engines 12.1 compression down to 11.1 compression now. Like everyone else I’ve had problems with stock GM even tired the Yellow aftermarket one can’t remember the name. Not good luck with that one either. Just got fed up and paid the bucks and got a Tilton nice thing about it, is it comes with new bolts and starter shims. And you can clock it for header clearance. Their like $420.00 bucks now about double what I paid 25 years ago. Oh and other thing is surprising how much lighter it is the the old GM starter.

[Mister Pontiac]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Mini starters spin the engine over slower than factory type. They are gear reduction.
I lost 20lbs in a compression test just going to a mini starter. But they start your engine great. Headers cook factory starters is the reason so many buy mini starters.

Not sure this is completely accurate. If the mini-starter motor spins at the same speed as a factory unit, then add in gear reduction, sure it will spin slower. But if the motor itself spins much faster, even with gear reduction, the starter spins the engine at the same (or even faster) speed than stock.

Sounds like your mini starter is indeed a slower gear reduction unit.

My RobbMC in my 67 GTO spins just as fast or faster than a factory unit, and it too is a gear reduction starter.

[Dragncar]

Looks like we bought them all.

https://www.holley.com/products/elec...rs/parts/50973

[GtoFM]

Mine arrived yesterday. It has a 2017 date stamp, must be clearing out old stock. Limited clocking adjustment, maybe 25-30*.

[Don 79 TA]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Mini starters spin the engine over slower than factory type. They are gear reduction.
I lost 20lbs in a compression test just going to a mini starter. But they start your engine great. Headers cook factory starters is the reason so many buy mini starters.

slower?
odd, i've always noticed (or should say sounded) so much faster (almost all of the mini starters i have heard/seen

the powermaster i have now, seems slower compared to the IMI's, but sounds stronger, if you get my point...
the PM one i have now only had i think two clockable positions and is slightly bigger than the IMI. the snout on it seems way beefier.

as with any starter, shimming is crucial....

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Don 79 TA

slower?
odd, i've always noticed (or should say sounded) so much faster (almost all of the mini starters i have heard/seen

the powermaster i have now, seems slower compared to the IMI's, but sounds stronger, if you get my point...
the PM one i have now only had i think two clockable positions and is slightly bigger than the IMI. the snout on it seems way beefier.

as with any starter, shimming is crucial....

They are gear reduction vs factory starters with a big motor with a gear on one end.

Mine showed up today. As is it hits my headers. The only clock option goes the right direction so we will see if it hits my big@$$ headers.
Or it will be for sale.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Don 79 TA

slower?
odd, i've always noticed (or should say sounded) so much faster (almost all of the mini starters i have heard/seen

the powermaster i have now, seems slower compared to the IMI's, but sounds stronger, if you get my point...
the PM one i have now only had i think two clockable positions and is slightly bigger than the IMI. the snout on it seems way beefier.

as with any starter, shimming is crucial....

Unlike direct drive, gear reduction starters use smaller, faster motors to rotate their gears in a roughly 4:1 ratio, which results in lower power consumption and higher torque. In applications gear reduction is used to increase speed. So yes they spin them faster.

[Greg Reid]

I went with the IMI unit because I liked the fact that the connections were on the block side and not the exhaust side. I'll never go back to a factory starter.
Now, having said that, I was ok with the factory starter until I started having problems and a hard time figuring it out. After going to the IMI there was still a problem...a single click about every 3rd try.
I finally rigged up a push button deal where I could get under the car to see what was happening. I thought it was an alignment problem because I could see that the starter pinion wasn't meshing with the teeth on the flex plate. As it turned the real problem was that the purple wire from my ignition switch was dropping at least half of the voltage to the solenoid. That low voltage didn't give the solenoid enough of a kick for the starter pinion to seek and set itself into the flex plate teeth. It seemed like two different problems but it was really just two different symptoms between the two designs. Factory solenoid wouldn't throw at all and the mini starter solenoid just wasn't getting voltage enough to force it mesh.
I replaced the wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid and no more problems since. After having changed that Delco starter in and out several times the mini starter was a dream to work with and so I'll be using those types of starters from now on.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

I went with the IMI unit because I liked the fact that the connections were on the block side and not the exhaust side. I'll never go back to a factory starter.
Now, having said that, I was ok with the factory starter until I started having problems and a hard time figuring it out. After going to the IMI there was still a problem...a single click about every 3rd try.
I finally rigged up a push button deal where I could get under the car to see what was happening. I thought it was an alignment problem because I could see that the starter pinion wasn't meshing with the teeth on the flex plate. As it turned the real problem was that the purple wire from my ignition switch was dropping at least half of the voltage to the solenoid. That low voltage didn't give the solenoid enough of a kick for the starter pinion to seek and set itself into the flex plate teeth. It seemed like two different problems but it was really just two different symptoms between the two designs. Factory solenoid wouldn't throw at all and the mini starter solenoid just wasn't getting voltage enough to force it mesh.
I replaced the wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid and no more problems since. After having changed that Delco starter in and out several times the mini starter was a dream to work with and so I'll be using those types of starters from now on.

This is exactly why the Ford solenoid works so well. I dealt with the same issue. Purple wire getting cooked and losing voltage-current. With Ford solenoid you have one big fat wire that carries all the current and is only hot when you hit the key.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

Unlike direct drive, gear reduction starters use smaller, faster motors to rotate their gears in a roughly 4:1 ratio, which results in lower power consumption and higher torque. In applications gear reduction is used to increase speed. So yes they spin them faster.

Nope, its gear "reduction". For a gear reduction starter that has a 4-1 ratio, 4 turns of the electric motor to turn the starter drive one revolution the mini starter would have to operate at 5 times the RPM of the stock direct drive starter to actually spin the engine over faster.
Not happening.
Now I do not know the RPM of a stock GM starters motor or the RPM of a mini starters motor. But there are no free lunches dealing with electricity. A smaller, faster motor with the same current will have less torque. No way around that.
But that issue is taken care of with "gear reduction".
I deal with big 480 AC electric motors all the time. They usually are 1740 RPM. Some are 1400, a few special ones are 1200 RPM. But none are 5 times the difference in RPM.
I doubt DC motors are much different.
People just think their engine is spinning over faster because they hear the gear reduction making extra noise. Its a audio illusion.

[Gach]

Your wrong!

[Gach]

I lost 20lbs in a compression test just going to a mini starter. But they start your engine great.

Thats off the wall stuff ! I’ve never lost 20 lbs cranking compression with my Tilton starter.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

Your wrong!

Tell me how are you going to get around a 4-1 gear reduction ? By spinning it more than 4 times the OEM starters RPM, that is how.
That is a huge increase and not happening.
This is just like the difference in our direct drive starters in the old days and Mopar gear reduction starters. They made that extra noise, because there were extra gears involved spinning the engine over slower. But with more torque = gear reduction.
The only other option is flipping the gear reduction. One turn of the smaller electric motor turning and the gear drive turning over 4 times !
Not happening. No free lunches with electricity.
You know about as much about this stuff as picking out a high end solid roller cam for a stock block.
You know that cam you picked out for me with your fancy Vizard program ?
Well it is on its way to Bullet to get re ground. I will end up with a proven safe UD lobe, .435 so it will have little less lift.
I had a engine all put together. Valves lashed, oil pump primed, sealed up, painted.
Now the beautiful shaft rockers are in a plastic bag. Intake and valley cover are off. Press fit balancer off and timing cover in a bag. Front of the oil pan is open with rags in it.
Great.
That cam was bugging me so I called up Tim G at Bullet who re ground that cam you gave to me.
I gave him all the numbers, exact lobes and told him I was concerned about my lifter bores.
When I asked you if the cam you run was one of the cams that put the lifter bores at risk you said "no".
Tim G knows Pontiacs and has all the numbers and a formula for the aggressiveness of the lobes and how it relates to stock Pontiac block safety.
He call it "intensity factor". And the smaller the number the more risky the lobe is.
That Comp cam is like 2 clicks past lifter bore brace only territory. Is a real fast ramp and puts the block at risk. That sucker is kind of square when you look at it.
My idea was to run the best lobe I can for my situation but without putting the block at risk. And run a full lifter bore brace for my safety margin.
So I have a choice, risk it and run great but waiting for that moment it all goes bad.
Or put in a cam that is still a big cam but just below the risk territory. A new cam was 650 $ and the Comp cost me 450 $. I could buy a new one and try and sell the Comp, hassle. Or have him regrind the Comp, same events on the 112 but with lobes that are proven safe in a stock Pontiac block.
So that is what I will do.
You might want to learn more about big rollers and what is safe in a Pontiac block.
I did. Hey its my fault. Trusted the wrong guy.
Live and learn but I am not too happy about tearing into my beautiful fully assembled and painted engine.
You have a nice day Gach.
So Tim will re grind the cam for a couple hundred bucks and I can sleep at night. I will not even need new pushrods.

[Schurkey]

I have never compared the RPM of an engine cranking with a direct-drive starter vs. a PMGR starter. My suspicion is that the engine does crank slower with the PMGR starter, but not much slower.

Electricity going through a direct drive starter has to power the armature windings AND the field-coil windings. Electricity going to a PMGR starter powers only the armature, the "field" is a permanent magnet not an electromagnet.

A smaller armature getting the full voltage/less resistance of not having to share power with the field coils no doubt spins faster than the old-style starters.

A s a side-bonus, the PMGR starters take less amperage to spin the engine. Less amperage load on the battery means they tend to receive higher voltage, again helping them to spin faster.

[Gach]

Your clueless, that cam was pick out for your 950 pump gas motor. Remember the one you kept bragging about, With Gaby heads. That have been at Marcellus for 3 years Then you bought that blemish IA block, that needs two sleeves. Plus it has a 55 mm cam tunnel. So guess what you can use that cam. When you ask me about using it in a stock block I said NO ! You said yeah but I’m running lifters bore brace… dude your all over the place. Since you’ve decided to air you dirty laundry I figure its time to set the truth straight . Remember when you called me like 50 times to help degree your cam in, or how about time you putting motor together and as usual not paying attention and hit counter weight and put a nice dent in your prize Molnar rods..LOL is that why you bought another set…LOL I still have pictures of that rod you sent me. Or how about the Crower rods that two were physically bigger I mean sends rods and Assembly out to be balanced and doesn’t check rods first. I mean a 10 year old could see that. So whats this third time and third set of rods you had to have balanced. Clueless and this is exactly why I blocked your phone number.

So lets see, a starter that makes say 50lbs torque is going to turn a motor over faster then one that makes 100 lbs torque.

[Sirrotica]

If you want to now the facts, there's plenty of information about mini starters here:

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/be...n-you-realize/