[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

I have been in the building business for well over 40 years. You def. need a specialist for this project. We had a customer many years ago that had the same desires, a log home as their retirement present. One thing to consider, and I believe you have mentioned it, the actual price of a log home package is very attractive. But its kinda like how pole barns are priced in my area. Everything is extra. The package will buy the logs, no foundation, no electric, no plumbing you get the point. All of these tasks will cost twice than a normal house for installation. So the end game is that a log home is considerably more ft. vs. ft. of traditional. We ended up building a timber frame home with log siding. IMO, it looked ok, but not quite the same as a true log home. I would check around before signing with the first guy. There are quite a few log home builders in Eastern NC. A net search should turn them up, but it seems there is a log home alley in that neck of the woods.

The recommendation was to hire a log crew to dry in the structure, then a general contractor to do the interior. Tar River was one of the companies I considered for the timber, pretty sure they're NC.

I' m notorious for doing research before I spend a dime on anything, the exact reason I posted this. I'm trying to be as informed from any source I can access.

Thanks for the reply.

[poncho-mike]

I was looking at a house in VA recently, and I found it had studded walls, but the exterior appears to be individual logs. I think the realtor said it was log veneer or log siding or something similar. It looked nice, and the inside was all done in real wood with minimal sheet rock. The realtor said this type of construction kept the log cabin appearance but without the poor insulation and was lower maintenance. I didn't go further for other reasons, but it looked very nice.

Mike

[6869GTO]

I'll give you my 2 cents worth.
Back when I was a young guy I built my own log cabin, did a bit of research back then and still living in it so here goes.
Cedar vs fir. Most of your cedar logs are smaller than a similar fir logs. Most are machine milled vs a hand pealed look,,called them spaghetti logs. Logs are not rated on an "R" value, thinking it's a P or H ,,forget. Either way unless your logs will be close to ground or in the ground fir is fine and larger size helps heat cooling. Don't think that you can set your thermostat at 60 when away and expect it to reach 68 an hour after you get home. The logs need time warm up vs a conventional home ,they will continue to radiate that 60 degrees for some time. That is also why they actually stay cooler in the summer if you open windows at night and close them in the morning' watching your outside temps.
Foundation,,,if your building a cabin with say 8- 12" logs you don't need a 10" wall, unless on a swamp. 8 " is fine as long as you have re bar in footings and at top of wall.
Keep it simple . If I was to do it over I would stick with a basic rectangle,,,no T shape like I did. Valley type roofs fail too soon. Have at least 12" plus overhang at eves and gables.
Got more but this is getting long allready

[Sirrotica]

6869GTO, by all means, unless you don't want to share more details, I would appreciate anything at all you have to offer.

One thing I have been told both ways about foundation, one contractor says poured concrete was a necessity, a company owner that mills and sells packages told me that a cement block foundation is more than ample, any preference by you?

Details from someone that has actually put a log cabin up, and then lived in it for decades, is going to be the best information I can get.

In doing more net searching today I've found 2 companies that have modular log cabins. Pre built within a factory, trucked to the site, and then assembled on sight with a crane. I saw this type of conventional construction home put up at a new state prison that was being built where I serviced the construction equipment on site. The warden was to live in this home. 4 days start to finish, it was set on the foundation, and the parts were tied together siding and roof were put on and it was done. Turn key in 4 days.

I have a friend that used to work stick building homes, when it was time to put a home for himself on the lot he bought, he bought a modular home instead of building it himself on site. What he told me his reason was for buying modular over stick built, was all about building it on a completely level factory floor, having every piece of equipment needed to assemble everything right there is a heck of a lot better and more efficient than trying to put up walls in wind, having it rain on the floors before the roof was on, it all made sense to me.

Especially when the home I had built in the 90s and it rained for days after the floors were laid, and before they could put the roof on. The flooring swelled up from the water, and never did go back to where it was before it got wet. I had ceramic tile laid in the entry way in the front hallway, and they had a hell of a time because the floor was still swollen from 3 days of rain on it.

There's a lot to be said for having a controlled environment when putting a house together.

[SR-71]

Like Cliff said carpenter bees will drive you nuts. A friend of mine built a log home back in the late 90s outside of Columbus Oh and before he knew it within 3 months or so there were holes all over his house. He was being invaded by the carpenter bees. Get it treated as it goes up. Also become really good friends with your electrician because if you want traditional outlets in the wall they will need to drill the logs as they put them up. My father in law was the electrical contractor on a big wheel with Nationwise Auto Parts when he built his 5,000 plus square foot log home and he was there for weeks just roughing the electric.

[6869GTO]

Personally I would stick with a poured foundation.
As far as plumbing I had to go with a cheater vent under kitchen sink, no partition wall close enough to vent up thru , so keep fixtures along interior walls if possible. Also installing baseboard heat was the hardest part, getting them tucked into logs, but mine are hand pealed inside so flat logs would not be an issue.
Helped my cousin build his cabin and he drilled and chiseled for outlets. was pia. I used wire-mold and looks good and easy to do.
Keep vertical joints to a minimum. My logs were 16' plus . Saw a cabin that a builder put up and they cut all the logs into shorter lengths to make them easier to lift. Not kidding.
As others have mentioned the caulking is important to maintain , the most important in my mind. Mine needs some touch up . The petroleum based stuff is no longer available and it worked the best. Local store stuff not so good and fails due to the expansion/contraction of logs. Fall is the best time to seal your cabin.
If your build has rigid insulation on roof some only use 2". I recommend going with at least 4" , vapor barrier underneath and an airspace w/full soffit and ridge vents.

[69gtocv]

We started building our log home in 08 and finally moved in full time in 17 after I retired. We would drive 150 miles each way on weekends, probably 40 weekends a year, for I don't know how many years. I was determined to do as much of the work ourselves as we could to save some money. Not sure in the end that we saved all that much, but I'm proud to say we built 90% of it.

We chose a kit from a log home builder in Montana. Then the logs were cut and hewn in their lumber yard in BC Canada. They prefer Englemann Spruce for their color and tendency not to twist. Relatively knot free as well. They stacked the logs into the home shape, numbered them, then disassembled it and put them on flatbed trailers to ship to my home site. I hired a crew to crane them back up into place. I got to help with that and I think it took us 8 hours?

We went with a full basement with 9' walls. The actual footprint of the house is only 1000 sqft but the it's two story with half the upper floor as our master bedroom, bath and office. The rest of the upper floor is open to the main floor to make a great room. So 1500 total and then a 1000 sqft basement. Our logs average 12" in diameter. 9 courses on the main floor make 9' walls. 12/12 pitched roof, so it's 23' from the floor to the top ridge log. That was fun installing the tongue and groove pine ceiling!

We used under floor radiant heat fed by a propane fired boiler. Once the room gets to temperature, the mass of the logs hold the heat. We don't need ac in the summer either. Just crack open the windows at night.

I wired and plumbed it all myself. Drywall work was the worst job for me.

I had to frame the inside partition walls in two pieces because you have to allow for the logs shrinking as they finish drying. Ours ended up shrinking 4 1/2" over their 9' height!

Sorry for the long winded post. Let me know if have questions, as I've been there done that with our house.

Jeff

[Sirrotica]

6869 GTO. and 69gtocv, thanks very much for taking the time to respond to my posts, all great information in both posts. Feel free to post anything else relevant to building and living in log homes. I'm trying to find out all the things that could be stumbling blocks along the way for us. Probably the final home I'll have, and I want to make it as perfect, and trouble free an experience as possible.

[69gtocv]

You definitely have to plan out your plumbing before building/placing your bathrooms/laundry/kitchen. I was in the end able to run all the vents to just one stack penetrating the roof. The vent had to be ran in the partition walls. I did go with an aav for the kitchen sink. I had no other option for it.

I used Sashco brand oil stain and their flexible caulk. We don't like the look of the wide chink joints between the logs like the pioneers had to do. The caulk I used is the same color as the log stain so it almost disappears. If the log company knows what they're doing, the gap between the runs of logs can be minimal. I think ours were 1/2" max. The logs were really scribed together tightly.

[carbking]

Several years ago, a good friend's parents built one by putting two of the "kits" together end to end in north Missouri. Had a fireplace at each end. When the temperature down in the 'teens, and running both fireplaces as hot as they could, was possible to keep the inside temperature about 40 degrees. Got through the winter with a lot of space heaters; and in the spring sold the house at a tremendous loss!

Wood insulation is approximately R1/inch; so 12 inch logs have an effective insulation of 12.

Would be a beautiful home, in some location where neither heating nor air conditioning would be necessary.

Jon.

[Tim john]

Also be aware of how you hang kitchen cabinets if on exterior walls/logs because as stated the logs do and will move, dry, shrink and if your anchored to multiple logs you can run into a bind. I've seen cabinets hung on slotted vertical strips to work with the logs.

Tim john---

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tim john

Also be aware of how you hang kitchen cabinets if on exterior walls/logs because as stated the logs do and will move, dry, shrink and if your anchored to multiple logs you can run into a bind. I've seen cabinets hung on slotted vertical strips to work with the logs.

Tim john---

Thanks Tim, I can see how that could screw up cabinets. This is stuff I need to know.

Most anyone I've talked to has mentioned how the logs move from humidity changes, and drying of the timber over time, very good to know.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by carbking

Several years ago, a good friend's parents built one by putting two of the "kits" together end to end in north Missouri. Had a fireplace at each end. When the temperature down in the 'teens, and running both fireplaces as hot as they could, was possible to keep the inside temperature about 40 degrees. Got through the winter with a lot of space heaters; and in the spring sold the house at a tremendous loss!

Wood insulation is approximately R1/inch; so 12 inch logs have an effective insulation of 12.

Would be a beautiful home, in some location where neither heating nor air conditioning would be necessary.

Jon.

Jon, I appreciate your input, because I've asked for input.

To begin with, I've owned houses with fireplaces, they are incredibly inefficient for heating. Never better than 25% efficient at the very best. I've also owned air tight wood burners, that are so much more efficient if you want heat from wood. I have a barrel stove in my uninsulated garage currently, that heats it down into the single digits, far from ideal conditions to heat any building. But the air tight design is much more efficient than a fireplace.

Being a residence the bank requires another source of heat for financing so any wood heat would be supplemental over and above the conventional heat source in a house. Wood does have a lower R value than an insulated framed wall, but also has a thermal mass that retains heat, or cold. The people I've talked to stress that the air tightness, and sealing of the stacked logs has a huge bearing on how efficiently the space can be heated. The roof was 8 inches of foam board, this is typically where heat escapes a house as it rises. The ceiling R value is 40. The thermal mass will release stored heat, but by the same token it will release stored cold too. It is a different type of home than conventional construction without a doubt, but I'm aware of this difference going into the build.

We were at a log home model yesterday, outside air temp was 30s, inside had only a fire in a a conventional fireplace. My wife (which is always cold, all the time) had to take her jacket off while we were looking at the home, and talking to the salesman during the course of an hour and a half. The forced air furnace didn't come on while we were there, I listened for it.

[sdbob]

We put in alot of foundations of concrete block. We would then parge outside with portland cement with fine sand mix,then after dried, parge black tar for waterproofing when wet stick on rigid insulation, choice was owners. Then french drains and backfill with 2b(#57) approx 1-1/2" top size, stone up to about foot of surface. Worked well for dry and warm basement. Tried to sell poured insulated foundations around here but block was the norm. Insulated poured foundations were quick and very warm but at the time about 30% more than block.

[69gtocv]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Jon, I appreciate your input, because I've asked for input.

To begin with, I've owned houses with fireplaces, they are incredibly inefficient for heating. Never better than 25% efficient at the very best. I've also owned air tight wood burners, that are so much more efficient if you want heat from wood. I have a barrel stove in my uninsulated garage currently, that heats it down into the single digits, far from ideal conditions to heat any building. But the air tight design is much more efficient than a fireplace.

Being a residence the bank requires another source of heat for financing so any wood heat would be supplemental over and above the conventional heat source in a house. Wood does have a lower R value than an insulated framed wall, but also has a thermal mass that retains heat, or cold. The people I've talked to stress that the air tightness, and sealing of the stacked logs has a huge bearing on how efficiently the space can be heated. The roof was 8 inches of foam board, this is typically where heat escapes a house as it rises. The ceiling R value is 40. The thermal mass will release stored heat, but by the same token it will release stored cold too. It is a different type of home than conventional construction without a doubt, but I'm aware of this difference going into the build.

We were at a log home model yesterday, outside air temp was 30s, inside had only a fire in a a conventional fireplace. My wife (which is always cold, all the time) had to take her jacket off while we were looking at the home, and talking to the salesman during the course of an hour and a half. The forced air furnace didn't come on while we were there, I listened for it.

I forgot to mention that our roof construction is SIPs (structural insulated panels)
. 8" of foam sandwiched between two layers of osb. High R value. On the inside of our basement, I stick framed out from the foundation walls an inch or so and then had sprayfoam blown in. Two baseboard radiators fed by the same boiler keep it as warm as we want down there and it stays cool in the summer.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Jon, I appreciate your input, because I've asked for input.

To begin with, I've owned houses with fireplaces, they are incredibly inefficient for heating. Never better than 25% efficient at the very best. I've also owned air tight wood burners, that are so much more efficient if you want heat from wood. I have a barrel stove in my uninsulated garage currently, that heats it down into the single digits, far from ideal conditions to heat any building. But the air tight design is much more efficient than a fireplace.

Being a residence the bank requires another source of heat for financing so any wood heat would be supplemental over and above the conventional heat source in a house. Wood does have a lower R value than an insulated framed wall, but also has a thermal mass that retains heat, or cold. The people I've talked to stress that the air tightness, and sealing of the stacked logs has a huge bearing on how efficiently the space can be heated. The roof was 8 inches of foam board, this is typically where heat escapes a house as it rises. The ceiling R value is 40. The thermal mass will release stored heat, but by the same token it will release stored cold too. It is a different type of home than conventional construction without a doubt, but I'm aware of this difference going into the build.

We were at a log home model yesterday, outside air temp was 30s, inside had only a fire in a a conventional fireplace. My wife (which is always cold, all the time) had to take her jacket off while we were looking at the home, and talking to the salesman during the course of an hour and a half. The forced air furnace didn't come on while we were there, I listened for it.

Before working on carburetors full-time, one of my earlier positions was working as an electrical engineering technician for an electric utility. One of my duties was working with the public on heat loss and new homes. The utility was pushing ground source heat pumps. Expensive to install, but very efficient.

Completely agree on the 25 percent being about the best you could expect from a fireplace. But the company that sold them the kits told them that with the thermal mass property of the wood, the fireplaces would do just fine. They didn't. And since they were not planning on electric heat, they put in a 100 amp service, so only so many electric space heaters they could use. 60 degrees was about the maximum temperature they could get for a couple of months.

Their house was built in the 1970's, when log houses were becoming fashionable. I would guess techniques are much better now.

Of course, the real issue when trying to heat/cool a home is glass. With my experience with heat loss, when we built our current home (1977) we installed R-19 walls, R-39 ceiling and triple pane glass throughout which is .....................R-3!

I would want to speak with a few owners of log homes in your area that had owned the homes through a few winters, rather than experience in a model house.

Wood heat is another matter locally. Many insurers will not insure a home with any form of wood heat. Those that will have their own building codes with enclosed fireplaces and tile for a certain radii from the fireplace(s). We had to remove a barrel stove such as yours from our workshop, with a concrete floor, no less! My friend's parents were in a rural setting.

Jon.

[389]

Make sure the electrician uses Arc Fault breakers on everything... You will love living in a log cabin. They say they can't burn down and that a regular home is more prone to burn down then a log home..

[Sirrotica]

In my first home I had problems with the wiring right after we moved in with loose connections in the work boxes. After 2 incidents, finding loose connections I went over all the connections in the whole hose and retightens all the connections. I lived there for 10 more years without having anymore close calls with electrical connections.

Hard to believe how hot one of those connections can get, even just powering a 75 watt bulb. I had smoke coming from one of the light switches in the bedroom, and it melted the switch. The breaker never tripped. Good call on those type breakers.

[sdbob]

My father had a guy work on his oil furnace. He went out somewhere,when we came back smelt something here the 110 volt line to furnace was in handy box on furnace wire to furnace with wire nuts. One of the wire nuts was completely melted or disintegrated. Didnt kick brake fuse at that time.Just from arching,wires should have been twisted with linemans pliers,then nutted. Lucky that's for sure

[fiedlerh]

My parents lived in one for 20 years during retirement. As has been said, they do require maintenance as does any type of construction. It's like owning a giant piece of furniture that is kept outdoors.

A key is to give the exterior a thorough inspection every few years and more often as it gets older. You have to keep insects at bay (mainly carpenter bees, wasps, and termites). One thing you MUST do is keep the joints between the logs sealed. You have to refinish/touch up the exterior now and then, maybe every 5-10 years. There are companies that specialize in maintenance and repairs when you get to the age where your wife won't let you get up on ladders.

I recall the home was comfortable year round and HVAC bills were normal, but this was Arkansas. You do need to dust the interior logs once in a while.