[Greg Reid]

Definitely not the original alternator, distributor etc. so nothing to help answer questions there. In fact, the block is the only thing I've found that matches the car. Not the tranny nor the rear end. That's why I'd never claim it as a matching numbers car.

[gtopont]

65 gto what month / year is concidered an early build is 11/28/64 an early build for a 65 gto ? please reply

[Greg Reid]

I wouldn't call that early. Early would be in the summer of '64... Like July-August

[unruhjonny]

the model year was typically september of the prior calendar year through to august of the same (as model) year.

On occasion the “early” versus “late” has to do with a date which denoted a change in equipment.
Eg: Spring(?) 1973 emissions revision for 1973 model year vehicles

[Keith Seymore]

Production for the 1965 model year started on 8/24/1964 (in Pontiac Michigan, I assume).

K

[John V.]

Early is such a relative term. My ‘64 GTO was produced 11/20/63 at Fremont (for historical perspective, the Wednesday before JFK was shot).

I consider it relatively early because GTO sales hadn’t yet exploded, the bulk of the mag articles, especially the March Car and Driver article came later and a spike in GTO sales occurred in March and April from the records I’ve collected.

Sales of the ‘65 GTO were strong from the outset. Keith notes the start of production. In the first few days, line speed wasn’t yet cranked up as bugs were worked out.

Then there was the strike. The walkout occurred in late Sept (check the history books for the exact date) and production was halted. Production resumed after the strike was settled just before Election Day (LBJ wasn’t happy with the UAW as it was embarrassing to his presidency although the election results show it did little harm) and ramped up pretty quickly after that.

I believe the Pontiac Plant produced close to 300,000 cars for the ‘65 model year. Assuming yours was produced there, if the VIN was within maybe 5% of the total, that’s pretty early. Say lower than P115000 relative to the roughly 95% built at the Pontiac Plant after that. And assuming the percentage of GTOs remained fairly constant, you can guess that of the approximately 35,000 GTOs built at the Pontiac Plant (my rough estimate), roughly 33,250 were later builds.

But early isn’t especially meaningful except for situations as unruhjonny points out where a running change results in the need to distinguish between early and late builds.

One such early vs. late distinction for ‘65 IIRC was the change from the “rebuildable” fuel pump to the disposable type. I don’t recall if this affected the GTO.. I believe there was an alternator p/n change during ‘65 that has been discussed here in the past.

[Dick Boneske]

I've had both our '64 GTO's judged, one by GTOAA in Dayton, 2013, and one by POCI at Wisconsin Dells in 2018. Both were awarded Concours Gold.

I don't understand the angst over date codes. The judges made no mention of date codes on either car. I provided PHS documentation for both at each event. The date codes on the Tr-Power intake manifold in '64 are not visible with carbs in place. The date codes on the cylinder heads are under the rocker arm covers. The carb tags plainly show date codes, but tags are easily transferable between carbs, which are the same casting numbers from 1964 through 1965. The date codes on the engine block and distributor are difficult to see, so neither set of judges looked at those.

They did dock points for a throttle cable they claimed was aftermarket, unpainted trunk latch, painted fuel door springs, oil residue on fuel pump, and painted brake master cylinders (should be plain cast iron). Both cars also have '67 HO exhaust manifolds and radial tires, for which points were deducted.

Not a single mention was made with either car about date codes. Where does all this angst come from?

[unruhjonny]

I think “angst” is the wrong word;

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=define+angst
… because no body uses “let me google that for you” any more

I think that typically when people are looking for replacement parts, and since parts on the car affect value, they will often strive to find the most correct possible.
The other factor is that if a block might go for (let’s say) $400 - the date code would have absolutely no bearing on the cost of said block, so discerning people might wait for the right one rather than swap in the first one that comes along.

Congrats on concours gold!!

You’re also lucky that the date codes are pretty much all hidden - this isn’t typically the case for most of these cars;
If those codes were out in the open, I’d suspect the judges would have looked for them.

[RA1John]

PMD engine plant cast, machined, assembled and painted the engine.

The vehicle assembly plant "dressed" the engine...
Alternator
Starter
Coil
Fan
AC compressor
PS pump
Engine mounts

More likely that the engine plant held back an engine than the vehicle plant, though this was possible too if there was an issue.
Worse case scenario would be partial VIN stamped onto block ('68+), installed into vehicle, then discovered to have an issue requiring a new engine assembly. Vehicle plant repair wouldn't be changing engine internals. They'd pull another engine per Broadcast and stamp that with correct VIN.

Theoretically, it would possible for en engine to go from casting to install within a few days, especially if it went into the Pontiac assembly plant.

[Keith Seymore]

The engine in my GTO was cast nine days before the completed vehicle shipped.

K

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by gtopont

65 gto what month / year is concidered an early build is 11/28/64 an early build for a 65 gto ? please reply

There is an Early // Late break on a 65 GTO for the Tach & Gauge cluster .
Early cars had a Tach with a full green stripe without a Redline.
Later cars had a Redline after 5200+/-

Have forgotten that general rule of thumb but I believe your Nov 28 would have the (early) All-Green stripe tach.
If that is your quandry.

[dv657172]

Have a Fremont built 65 GTO, numbers matching

Time Built Code = 06E, 5th week of June
Engine Cast Date = F265 = June 26th

Block definitely didnt sit around in inventory

By the way how did Pontiac define a week - Sunday at midnight to Saturday at midnight??

[scott06]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

There is an Early // Late break on a 65 GTO for the Tach & Gauge cluster .
Early cars had a Tach with a full green stripe without a Redline.
Later cars had a Redline after 5200+/-

Have forgotten that general rule of thumb but I believe your Nov 28 would have the (early) All-Green stripe tach.
If that is your quandry.

My 4th week of jan 65 build car has the original full green stripe. Not sure when it changed over to green red.

I am fairly certain the tach is original as it is a TI tach and this car had TI on it originally .

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by dv657172

By the way how did Pontiac define a week - Sunday at midnight to Saturday at midnight??

Yes - I believe so.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

There is an Early // Late break on a 65 GTO for the Tach & Gauge cluster .
Early cars had a Tach with a full green stripe without a Redline.
Later cars had a Redline after 5200+/-

Have forgotten that general rule of thumb but I believe your Nov 28 would have the (early) All-Green stripe tach.
If that is your quandry.

Originally Posted by scott06

My 4th week of jan 65 build car has the original full green stripe. Not sure when it changed over to green red.

I am fairly certain the tach is original as it is a TI tach and this car had TI on it originally .

Mine's so early that it didn't even get a tach...

[dv657172]

Thanks Keith

[FirebirdHank]

So my '69 Firebird with a January '69 build date and engine date code of Sept. '69 indicates that it is probably not correct?

[johnta1]

See what the partial VIN on the engine shows. It will tell if it is original?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by FirebirdHank

So my '69 Firebird with a January '69 build date and engine date code of Sept. '69 indicates that it is probably not correct?

You are correct; the engine is not correct (or you are reading the code incorrectly).

The engine should not be built after the completed vehicle.

K