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Old 04-13-2020, 10:51 PM
fairwayhit fairwayhit is offline
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Default Are all 4L80e's the same?

After reading Cliff's book, It seems like I would need a drum/36 element sprag, a rebuild kit, bearing kit, a shift kit, and a few tools to properly rebuild the Th350. All said, I would have $700-$800 in the rebuild and still no overdrive.

So I started to kick around just getting a 4L80e. I realize that I would need a controller and harness, shorter driveshaft, adapter plate, etc. Since all of that adds up, I was thinking I would just get a used transmission and see how it goes. After all, the stock unit would probably still be just as strong as a hopped up TH350.

When I started looking for a good used 4L80e I quickly realized that there aren't a lot of low mileage units out there. Most of them come out of pickups with well over 100K miles on them.

I did see a couple low mileage candidates out of Bentleys. However, I saw online where someone said that these transmissions were substantially modified by Bentley, but I can't find out in what way.

So, are all 4L80e transmissions basically the same, or are there some you should steer clear of?

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Old 04-14-2020, 07:50 AM
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You want the 91-96 4L80e due to size, there is a change for late 96-up, but can't recall at the moment what the case change was at the moment. I think the main difference is the fluid lines are closer together and lower, making it easier to fit in a tunnel. You can cut the 'ears' off the case to make more room, which does nothing to the rigidness of the case.

The factory 4L80e is rated at 440ft lbs, and the 4L85e at 690ft lbs. Many parts from the 85 will work in the 80, and can raise the 80 to 85e ratings. To stock less parts, most rebuild shops use 85 parts across the board. So it's best to get a rebuilt one.

Monster has a 4L80e rebuilt for $1400, add $350 for a converter. At the same or less than what a built TH400 is, it makes it a no-brainer in my opinion. Other builders with the usually rebuild mods rate them at 750-800ft lbs. I've never used Monster but have heard others that have and are happy. Local shops can do a basic rebuild and you can get them with no core for less than $1400.

At those prices, you're better off buying a rebuilt one. Buy all the supporting items first, as you can afford them, and save/buy the trans. That spreads the sticker shock out to where it's not bad at all.

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Old 04-14-2020, 09:00 AM
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U-Pull-it 4L80s were $70 each, now ~$100 each with converter, dipstick, cooling line sections, 6' GM harness.

Be wise that way.

Filter, a few kits (Vacuum modulator, Acuum blocking plate, drain plug), and you can...


Paddleshift, PMD floor shift, column-shift that beast. No Computer.

I did and OD is rather nice. Locking converter is like 25 rpm diff at highway so seems moit.

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Old 04-14-2020, 09:14 AM
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Nice thing about lock up is you can run a touch more stall and doesn't have to be as tight. That helps with launch and idle-in-gear feel. With an ECU you can lock up in 3 and 4, and not have any slip below the stall.

For example, if your cruise RPM is like 1800-2200, it's tough to get a converter stall that low, so it will slip. I would set my lockup to like 38-43mph, so around town is great. You can control unlock vs TPS, so when you let off it coasts. And have a mild delay for lockup under say 35% TPS.


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Old 04-14-2020, 11:33 AM
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So I called about an older 4L80e that I was told is the non electronic version. Would that still be a good choice? Can I make that work? What would I lose compared to a newer one?

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Old 04-14-2020, 11:36 AM
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I've never heard of a non-electronic 4L80e. The 'e' stand for electronic.

You want the 91-96 versions.


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Old 04-14-2020, 11:41 AM
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I haven’t heard of one either that’s just what the seller told me.....I will ask for the year of it....is there any stamping on the case to help me confirm what it is?

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Old 04-14-2020, 12:16 PM
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I suspect you will be told whatever it is that you want to buy! Heheh! If that's what's being told to you, I wouldn't even bother pursuing it, they don't even know what they have.


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Old 04-14-2020, 12:51 PM
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There are stand alone controllers.
https://www.usshift.com/usq4.shtml
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...0e-subharness/
And others I imagine. I think FAST makes one.

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Old 04-14-2020, 12:53 PM
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The newer ones have a fluid fitting towards the tail shaft. It is said to offer better lubrication and cooling on a rear bearing support.

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Old 04-14-2020, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
I suspect you will be told whatever it is that you want to buy! Heheh! If that's what's being told to you, I wouldn't even bother pursuing it, they don't even know what they have.


.
Sometimes them not knowing what they can save a lot of money 💰

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Old 04-14-2020, 03:23 PM
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The diesels from 91-93 have a factory standalone transmission ECM because the engines had no electronics for engine management, they used a fully mechanical injection pump. I believe that's where the "fully mechanical" term, the OP is talking about, is being misunderstood. It's a fully mechanical injection pump, not a fully mechanical transmission. Although there is aftermarket support that can make the 4L80E fully manual without a onboard ECM. That means the way to upshift and downshift is to move the gear selector manually, totally different modification.

Mark, "Half Inch Stud", member name on PY, has a 68 GTO with the full manual 4L80E conversion in his car. He also has a write up showing the progression of the swap documented on PY.

In 1994 GM switched to an diesel engine management system, and a different injection pump. Post 1993, the ECM both controlled the injection pump, and the transmission. Pre 1994, the ECM only controls the transmission. I believe this is where the misunderstandings lie about "fully mechanical" the OP talks about, it's the injection pump, not the transmission. the transmission wasn't changed, the injection pump was the change.

The case pass thru wiring harness plug in the 91-93 also had a tendency to leak fluid as they aged. The updated plug (94 and later) can easily be updated with a 94 and later internal transmission wiring harness. If being used in it's original application (91-93 chevy/GMC truck) you also need to splice a late model (94 and later) plug onto the wiring harness in the truck to complete the update. Transmission parts suppliers sell just the updated plug, and wires externally, as well as the 94 and later internal wiring harnesses to update the 91-93 OEM harnesses in the trucks.

The aftermarket transmission transmission ECM's use the 94 and later plug on their wiring harnesses, so if you had a 91-93 transmission that hadn't been updated to the later plug, you would need to change the internal wiring harness inside of the transmission to correspond.

The only difference in the 4L80E between diesel and gas, is the diesel torque converter is tighter, less slippage than the gas engine converter. The rest of the transmission is the same as far as internal parts.

In 1997 the Hydramatic division made a case change to better lubricate the center support by moving the location of one of the cooling line connections. In a tightly confined transmission tunnel, the 91-96 transmissions are usually somewhat easier to hook up cooling lines in a conversion in a car, due to the revision in 97 that moved the rearmost connection further up, and to the rear. To interchange a 97 and later transmission into a 96 and earlier truck, the aftermarket makes a short tubing adapter to extend the later cooling line location the the early cooling line position, making a swap of a late transmission, to an early truck possible. It may also make the 97 and later transmissions easier to hook up cooling lines in a car.

There is one other variation of cases, the later cases that bolted to a LS engine had a seventh bell housing bolt dead center at the top, the other transmissions only had the 6 standard chevy bell patterns. I'm not certain why that 7th bolt was added, but it's out there and should be noted to make this list comprehensive. It has no bearing on a better case and the cases still bolt up to the 6 bolt pattern.

Jake (Jakes Performance) says that the earlier transmissions (91-96) are fine to use in a HP application. He states that the Hydramatic case update (97 and later) had little if any better results in supplying better lubrication to the support. Since I drive a 1993 K3500 6.5 turbo diesel dually with a 270,000 mile drivetrain, I would tend to agree that the cooling line update had little, if any effect, on transmission longevity.

No matter which transmission you have, pre 97, or post 97 they are an excellent basis for a HP, OD build.

Hopefully that will clarify the misunderstandings concerning the terminology of "fully mechanical", and "electronically controlled", the OP has encountered.

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Old 04-14-2020, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott65 View Post
There are stand alone controllers.
https://www.usshift.com/usq4.shtml
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...0e-subharness/
And others I imagine. I think FAST makes one.
Yes, TCI/FAST offers 3 different controllers. Basic one has a small handheld hard-wired controller. The next step up is the same basic controller, but has a wi-fi module in lieu of the hard-wired controller, and you use a tablet or smart phone to make adjustments and set-up. It is about $100 more than the base system.

The third system is sort of their 2.0 version, and requires a laptop to set-up and tune. I've seen the first two, but have not actually seen this one. I believe it has much more adjustability for fine tuning.

If you have a FAST efi system, then these plug directly into the wiring harness. That provides the RPM & TPS signals directly to the TCU, making the wiring a lot simpler.

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Old 04-14-2020, 03:51 PM
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Awesome info! ......are there any markings on the outside that would indicate the year and actual model of the transmission? Is 4L80e stamped on it anywhere?

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Old 04-14-2020, 04:32 PM
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Link to video illustrating early and late transmission differences:

https://m.roadkillcustoms.com/differ...transmissions/

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Old 04-14-2020, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow1098 View Post
I haven’t heard of one either that’s just what the seller told me.....I will ask for the year of it....is there any stamping on the case to help me confirm what it is?
Oh sure, but the 4L80e will only give you Park, Reverse, Neutral, and 2nd Gear. 🤓🤓🤓🤓🐿

To add value to the Thread:
We all need to put "12 Volts" to the pink wire in the 4L80E harness;
and ground the A Solenoid wire for 1st Gear.
Ground the B Solenoid for 3rd Gear.
Ground BOTh A & B wires for 4th (OVERDRIVE!)

I put that toa Hurst 4-Speed Stick Shifter and Column-shift for PRND. Much easier to do with an Auto Shifter with Shift Cable for PRND

Ground the Converter Clutch wire for Locked, leave open for converter.

NOTE: These activities are only fun when you add the Vacuum Modulator Kit....!

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Old 04-14-2020, 06:41 PM
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What can you guys tell from these pictures ?
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Old 04-14-2020, 06:48 PM
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Someone on PY advised me about the 4L80 Gasoline vs Diesel converters. Luckly mine were from gasoline engines, not Diesels.

His point was that the Diesel converter likely has low stall speed, and likely a bummer behind a cammed gas engine. I think that would be correct. Who knows what the re-stall industry prefers for Cores..

Point here is My driving with the GM 4L80 gasoline converter is quite interesting: good idle and off-idle behavior. Very little slip at highway like 25 rpm unlock-lock at 75 mph with 2500-2525 rpm, yet pulls like a slingshot from 75-90 mph in OD, no downshift.

I can also pull-away in 2nd or 3rd gear, making the TH400 1st gear seem pointless, but I yea use 1st gear as a pleseant reminder. No 60foot eval yet.

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Old 04-14-2020, 06:54 PM
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POST 18 photos appears that 4L80E plastic vent tube indicatesit got rebuilt/serviced, and the converter got painted. ID tag missing.

Good Core though because the Cooling Line Ports are "together" like a TH400 making that desirable. Other 4L80s have 1 port moved to the middle body making the cooling connect & fit an adventure in the Floorboard Tunnel. My Spare 4L80 build is that way.

Helps to see the Left Side because the Connector port Shape changed like every 5-10 years.


Last edited by Half-Inch Stud; 04-14-2020 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
POST 18 photos appears that 4L80E plastic vent tube indicatesit got rebuilt/serviced, and the converter got painted. ID tag missing.

Good Core though because the Cooling Line Ports are "together" like a TH400 making that desirable. Other 4L80s have 1 port moved to the middle body making the cooling connect & fit an adventure in the Floorboard Tunnel. My Spare 4L80 build is that way.

Helps to see the Left Side because the Connector port Shape changed like every 5-10 years.
So it definitely is a 4L80e right? Haha......how much money would I need to put into it to use it with my 650hp stroker? Thanks so much!

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