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Old 08-20-2022, 08:41 PM
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Default 1969 Carousel Red Judge with an odd engine history.

In July of this year I traveled about 40 miles from my home to a small show in a small town. There I saw a Carousel Red 1969 Judge (Ram Air III/four-speed) that I've never seen before. It's always great to stumble onto something new. I met the owner. He was a great guy to talk to and we shared a bunch of old muscle car war stories. He said he's owned the car since 1990-91, but it rarely sees the road anymore. It's eventually going to be handed down to his son.

The Judge is an Arlington built car with a 02C (February - third week, 1969) time built code. The current owner (the 6th) at some point traced it's history back to the original owner, who bought it in Wyoming. The original owner was no longer living but he talked to his brother. All of the other owners he talked to wanted to buy the car back.

When he first bought the Judge (again, around 1990-91) it had a Ram Air IV engine in it. Years later, around 2008-09, he went back to the seller and bought the original Ram Air III engine. He didn't get around to installing it until 2019. So it had its original engine when I saw it a little over a month ago.
I have no idea what he did with the Ram Air IV.

When I first began checking the car over I noticed the #48 heads had a H278 (August 27th, 1968) cast date. I'm assuming the block was also right in that range. Oddly, the intake casting was B199 (February 19, 1969). The block had the correct WS stamping, but I remember it being in an odd location. And it lacked an engine unit number. The owner told me that the block had never been stamped with a partial VIN number. He also said the carb was a 1969 Ram Air III Firebird/Trans Am unit (7028273). All very strange for the original engine of a 1969 Judge.

Here's what the owner thinks on what happened to his original engine. The Ram Air III engine was built very early in the 1969 production run and was destined for use in a Firebird or Trans Am (which would be a WQ code 335-h.p.). For some reason the engine didn't meet specs and was pulled from the production line. It sat in a repair area for some time until it was fixed sometime in February of 1969. It was then repurposed for use in a GTO, so it was stamped with a WS code (366-h.p.). Because of the odd course it traveled the engine unit number and partial VIN number were never applied. But the engine kept its original, but then incorrect carburetor.

The theory sounds plausible to me but I have no idea on what actually happened to bum engines on the assemble line. I'm hoping that other members will share their thoughts.

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Old 08-20-2022, 08:49 PM
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Old 08-20-2022, 10:25 PM
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Too much water under the bridge to really know what happened IMO.Tom

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Old 08-22-2022, 07:54 AM
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Nice looking car and wonder what town? If it could happen allot of times it did happen. It was all about production and keeping up with the line.

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Old 08-22-2022, 11:10 AM
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All sounds very unlikely. The EUN is a sequential block casting number and it was stamped as the blocks were machined after casting. It would be extremely unlikely that a block would be sent into a car without it. The early date on the heads makes it verily likely that they come from an early production manual trans base 350 horse engine GTO. If the block has a similar date code it’s probably the matching WT block from that early base engine GTO.

A far more probable scenario is a previous owner simply got a 69 GTO WT engine and had the original EUN, engine code and VIN filled in or ground off and then stamped a WS to make it look like a correct judge engine. The majority of judges had their engines blown and lots of people restamp blocks to make it look correct. A little paint scraping would tell the story.

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Old 08-22-2022, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by north View Post
All sounds very unlikely.
I agree. I have come across a number a WT blocks where the T was filled in and a W was stamped in front of the original W. A few minutes of work and you have a valuable RAIV block. A little scrapping would show the rare WWT block code.

Going from WT to WS is a little more work. In this case a look at the casting number may clarify things but that can be faked too. 4 bolts mains (more difficult to fake) would indicate WS.

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Old 08-22-2022, 03:31 PM
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In 69 the WS and WT are 2 bolt main, I believe in 70 all GTO engines except the YS went 4 bolt.

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Old 08-22-2022, 06:47 PM
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In 69 the WS and WT are 2 bolt main, I believe in 70 all GTO engines except the YS went 4 bolt.
You are correct sir. 69 WS was 2 bolt. 70 WS was four bolt. memory is fading.

Dare I say that that all WTs were 2 bolt?

  #9  
Old 08-23-2022, 08:02 PM
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Too much water under the bridge to really know what happened IMO.Tom
This. It's all speculation and conjecture at this point.

Nice car, all the same.

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  #10  
Old 08-23-2022, 10:21 PM
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That whole story is bull****. I kbow exactly whats going on. Too much to type but I can assure you someone restamped that block. Keep this in mind. All blocks did not use the same location for a vin #. And thise heads are way too early for that car.

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Old 08-23-2022, 10:52 PM
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That whole story is bull****. I kbow exactly whats going on. Too much to type but I can assure you someone restamped that block. Keep this in mind. All blocks did not use the same location for a vin #. And thise heads are way too early for that car.
Drop the mic Don!!

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Old 08-24-2022, 10:56 AM
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Certainly sounds unlikely. I have a freind with a feb. dated RAIII GTO I’ll be interested to see what his block and heads are dated .

I would imagine this could happen that an engine needed to be pulled from the engine shop but I think it would still get a EUN number . I’ve seen others without VINS on them or partial vins but they did have EUNs I’m no expert but being it was all missing it would make me think someone wiped the slate clean and restamped the letter codes . Of course you’d think they’d have used the right dated block if they were going to try and fool someone .
Do think the guy w the crate 400 thread going said his block had no EUN or anything so maybe it is possible…..

Though unlikely and would be suspicious as a buyer.
Personally w a story like that I’d rather see an SR in there as a buyer or I’d have just left the RAIV in it and called it an upgrade . ��. Certainly it’s a real RAIII car someone swapped In a RAIV is a more realistic and very common story.

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  #13  
Old 08-24-2022, 11:56 AM
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Incorrect stamped WS & no asm number would have my antennae up. As far as being "tight dated" on block casting date & head dates, one needs to take into account, and I know I'm not the only one that has seen this; a fairly large amount of early 69 usage WS & YZ blocks & 48 casting heads were assembled as engines & stockpiled for the release of the '69 Program Judge builds. I've never owned an early built RAIII regular GTO, but do know there was a hold on the release of the RAIII engine in non Judges as well.

The first original engine '69 Judge project I picked up was over 30 years ago. That particular Judge was assembled, at what I believe right at the end of the program builds. Stiil have a copy of the invoice (it had to be one of the very first I ordered after PHS took over 1990(?)

242379A120xxx
shipped 04/03/69
auto, AC car

The born with original YZ RAIII engine from that Judge had a very late Oct '68 cast block & mid K (nov '68) casting 48's. Intake was no longer original, as it had a street dominator, which I removed. After some work on this Judge, I packaged it for sale with a nicer pair of front fenders. Also the only mid year '69 intake that I had at the time, just happened to be an early C of '69 dated intake. Several years later, I had a K of '68 dated intake come in. It was the first of several K's that had, & most of them i sold to other '69 Judge restorers that specified a K date range. Have ran across half a dozen other such dated original GTO usage RAIII engines with similar casting dates.

The above particular Lakewood auto AC Judge has since been restored (twice), & the last I heard, it was in the Denver area.

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Old 08-27-2022, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da judge View Post
In July of this year I traveled about 40 miles from my home to a small show in a small town. There I saw a Carousel Red 1969 Judge (Ram Air III/four-speed) that I've never seen before. It's always great to stumble onto something new. I met the owner. He was a great guy to talk to and we shared a bunch of old muscle car war stories. He said he's owned the car since 1990-91, but it rarely sees the road anymore. It's eventually going to be handed down to his son.

The Judge is an Arlington built car with a 02C (February - third week, 1969) time built code. The current owner (the 6th) at some point traced it's history back to the original owner, who bought it in Wyoming. The original owner was no longer living but he talked to his brother. All of the other owners he talked to wanted to buy the car back.

When he first bought the Judge (again, around 1990-91) it had a Ram Air IV engine in it. Years later, around 2008-09, he went back to the seller and bought the original Ram Air III engine. He didn't get around to installing it until 2019. So it had its original engine when I saw it a little over a month ago.
I have no idea what he did with the Ram Air IV.

When I first began checking the car over I noticed the #48 heads had a H278 (August 27th, 1968) cast date. I'm assuming the block was also right in that range. Oddly, the intake casting was B199 (February 19, 1969). The block had the correct WS stamping, but I remember it being in an odd location. And it lacked an engine unit number. The owner told me that the block had never been stamped with a partial VIN number. He also said the carb was a 1969 Ram Air III Firebird/Trans Am unit (7028273). All very strange for the original engine of a 1969 Judge.

Here's what the owner thinks on what happened to his original engine. The Ram Air III engine was built very early in the 1969 production run and was destined for use in a Firebird or Trans Am (which would be a WQ code 335-h.p.). For some reason the engine didn't meet specs and was pulled from the production line. It sat in a repair area for some time until it was fixed sometime in February of 1969. It was then repurposed for use in a GTO, so it was stamped with a WS code (366-h.p.). Because of the odd course it traveled the engine unit number and partial VIN number were never applied. But the engine kept its original, but then incorrect carburetor.

The theory sounds plausible to me but I have no idea on what actually happened to bum engines on the assemble line. I'm hoping that other members will share their thoughts.
Hey Rich, hope to see you at the club car show next month. We have to talk about this car. I don't recall seeing it anywhere but would love to talk to the current owner. The story he told you sounds like bilge to me too. As you know, most of the claims made today about "numbers matching" is a stretch and many or even most of these blocks have been restamped to look original. The WW RAIV block is the most faked Pontiac block today. When you see a car with a WW block and the owner claiming, original, raise a huge question mark. Present company exception!! LOL Pontiac engineer John Sawruck once said Pontiac made an SR block for each RAIV block put together on the assembly line. I guess John knew what was going to happen.

Back in the early 70's when these cars were roaming the streets, I checked many and most had their original engines replaced by the end of the decade. Most were raced and blew up within 50K. Finding an original engine muscle car today after 50 years is difficult but they do exist. Most are covered and driven only to car shows.

The date code debate has been going on for years, but I follow the NCRS book on this because it was these people that started the debate. NCRS states that if a part or casting is within 6 months prior to the cars build date, they consider it original to the car. There are exceptions and I've seen this with my car and some Delco parts where original parts are more than 6 months out. I spoke with Pat about this and his search for an original voltage regulator for his 68 Bird. Anyway, hope to see you next month at the club car show!!!

  #15  
Old 09-26-2022, 12:19 PM
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Too much water under the bridge to really know what happened IMO.Tom
^^^This.

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