[NAPA68]

Originally Posted by dpoltzer

I purchased a new solenoid from NAPA and installed it yesterday. I tested the starter and solenoid unit on my bench before installation and it looked, sounded and acted corretly. I then installed it in the motor but I STILL have the same problem. "Starter continues to spin after I release the key and it wont stop spinning until I disconnect the Batter cable". Now I am really stumped! Ideas???

Did the NAPA solenoid come with a new spring?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Do you understand what I've been trying to say?

Clay

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

This will most likely be a mechanical problem instead of electrical.

Plunger in the solenoid is being held back by mechanical force instead of magnetic when you let off on the ignition switch. Plunger drawn in is what pushes the disc (under the solenoid cap) against the battery and starter motor lugs. As long as the disc makes contact the starter motor is going to run.

There's a few things that can make this happen, that just looking during a bench test wont show.

Lack of slack between plunger, throwout lever and bendix/drive gear, with solenoid engaged, would be highly suspect. Or make that slack in the wrong direction.

Weak disc return spring and weak plunger return spring don't help when it comes to the disc breaking contact and solenoid disengaging.

Over extension of bendix from broke or missing parts, on drive end of armature, will let the bendix go too deep in the ring gear and use up the slack needed for solenoid disc to disengage.

Slack needed can be tested on the bench with plunger return spring removed. Pry the bendix towards the nose and see if the plunger is pushing the disc far enough to make contact with the lugs.

Mark Stellar, here on PY (stellar), may have specs to get all the parts working together like they should.

Just some thoughts
Clay

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

What happens when the engine fires off?

Clay

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Look for a missing collar and snap-ring on the end of the armature.

I've seen the collars break and fall off. That lets the drive gear over extend (uses up slack) that's needed for the disc to move away from the lugs in the solenoid cap.

Clay

[stellar]

Did you take a pic of the starter drive when the starter was off? Reread Quick Silvers post. It is now clear this is a mechanical problem. My best guess is the drive stop collar is broke or missing and the drive is either getting hung up on the stop collar retaining ring or it is not there and allowing the drive to engage too far. The only other possibility I can think of would be a drive that is locking up and not allowing the over running clutch to work. When you remove the starter again, turn the drive gear with your fingers. It should turn smooth in one direction and lock in the other direction. When it locks the whole armature will turn. If the armature turns in both directions when turning the drive the drive is bad. Post a pic.

[burd]

Take it to a starter shop. I just did mine, 5$ to fix. It’s usually something small.

[dpoltzer]

The new solenoid did come with a spring and it appeared to be identical to the original spring in terms of length and tension. When I bench tested the starter, I carefully watced as the drive gear extended and retracted each time I tested it. Maybe I dont fully understand what I should be looking for?

[NAPA68]

Originally Posted by dpoltzer

The new solenoid did come with a spring and it appeared to be identical to the original spring in terms of length and tension. When I bench tested the starter, I carefully watced as the drive gear extended and retracted each time I tested it. Maybe I dont fully understand what I should be looking for?

Okay. Then I'd echo what Stellar had to say. Certainly, you have a mechanical problem that is hanging the starter given what you had already done for electrical diagnostics.

Tim

[Sirrotica]

What everyone is trying to get across to you, is that you may be missing one, or both of these 2 pieces:



There is also a thrust washer in the next picture that shows how you assemble the 3 pieces on the armature shaft so there is a positive stop for the bendix.



Their function is to stop the bendix from traveling too far on the armature shaft. The round collar goes on first, then you have to squeeze the collar, and the thrust washer to push the over the snap ring. It positively stops the bendix from over stroking when the solenoid is energized.

There is also a leather washer that goes on the brush end of the armature to limit end play. They sometimes just deteriorate with age, or people just leave them out.

Here is a picture of the kit that supplies all the washers and stops that should be on the armature to limit end play:



Here is a drawing that shows locations of all the parts where they should be installed:



The pictures should clear up some of what the others are trying to convey, hopefully you'll find there are some missing parts that are causing the problem. If not you're probably going to have to find a knowledgeable rebuilder to find the problem.

Good Luck! I hope some of these images help out.......

[Bill Hanlon]

Brad - Great idea to post this drawing, but the numbers don't match the parts.

[johnta1]

"Starter continues to spin after I release the key and it wont stop spinning until I disconnect the Batter cable".

Is the engine running when it's still spinning?

I'd be checking the solenoid wire to the starter for 12 volts when key is not in 'Run' position. Possibly the ignition switch is not quite aligned?

In 'Start' on key, the Purple wire will have 12 volts, when let go (so it goes to 'Run') the purple wire should have no voltage.
Also should be no other wires going to the "S" terminal on solenoid.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Purple (S) wire powers an electro magnet that sucks the plunger in and kicks the drive gear out.

Plunger sucked in, pushes against a rod that's attached to a copper disc in the solenoid cap. When the disc makes contact with the two copper lugs, in the solenoid cap, it sends power to the starter motor.

If the drive gear travels too far, it makes the disc stay in contact with the lugs, even after you let off on the switch. Resistance/friction keeps the drive gear in the ring gear. Which holds the plunger in far enough to keep the starter running. As long as the starter is under a load, turning the engine, the drive gear can't slide back to give enough slack for the plunger to back up and let the disc move away from the lugs. That keeps the starter running, which creates the load,friction that keeps the drive gear stuck in the ring gear.

It's a never ending cycle that can only be stopped by taking a battery cable off OR the engine firing up and reducing the friction between the drive gear and ring gear.

When you let off on the switch, there has to be enough slack for the disc to back away from the lugs. That cuts the starter off and then return spings pull the drive gear back in..

Most common is broke or missing stop collar on the armature that lets the drive gear over extend and use up the slack needed for the disc to move away from the lugs.

Adjustments made to the throwout lever (during rebuild) can also take away the slack needed for the disc to move away from the lugs. Which means the stop collar can be there and the starter motor not cut off once it's under a load.

Doesn't take much slack for the plunger to back away from the rod that pushes the disc against the lugs. It's just got to be there for the starter to operate as it should.

This help?
Clay

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Brad - Great idea to post this drawing, but the numbers don't match the parts.

You're correct, I didn't bother to look at the parts list, and compare it to the numbers. I just snagged it off the net. GRRRRRRR. You know how that assume thing works?

Sorry for the confusion.

Found one that is correct, here you go:



#s 22, 27, and 23 are the parts that may be missing or not installed correctly.

[Greg Reid]

Sorry for the hijack dpolzer but related.... I have a starter that I replaced a while back for doing the same thing and this thread showed me something that I didn't know, so I dug it out and took a look at it.
Question- Which items on this pic-


are missing on this starter?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Sorry for the hijack dpolzer but related.... I have a starter that I replaced a while back for doing the same thing and this thread showed me something that I didn't know, so I dug it out and took a look at it.
Question- Which items on this pic-


are missing on this starter?



Is it just these two pieces of which I'm missing one?

Greg, in the last correct exploded drawing I posted, you're missing 22 and 23, there are 2 pieces that go over the circular snap ring shown in your picture that act as mechanical stops. They are clearly shown in the drawing with 2 pair of pliers that shows how to properly install the stop washers over the snap ring.

In this drawing your missing the thrust washer and retainer:

[Sirrotica]

In this photo you'll see in the middle of the picture 4 washers from right to left, there are 2 different diameters shafts in the GM starters and the larger diameter is found in the full size starters commonly found on V8s over 350 CU inches. These are the retainer and thrust washer missing in your photo.



The downsized starters were on 305 chevys and 301 Pontiacs, etc. in the later 70s

[Greg Reid]

Thanks Brad, that's really helpful. I'm glad I held on to it. I never had the heat soak problem in 6 or 7 years of driving with the pictured starter and solenoid... The replacement stranded me for an hour the last time I drove it. Probably the solenoid more than the starter though.
One more question is where do you get that kit? Do you have to purchase the full rebuild kit?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

There is also a thrust washer in the next picture that shows how you assemble the 3 pieces on the armature shaft so there is a positive stop for the bendix.



Their function is to stop the bendix from traveling too far on the armature shaft. The round collar goes on first, then you have to squeeze the collar, and the thrust washer to push the over the snap ring. It positively stops the bendix from over stroking when the solenoid is energized.
:

If these parts get installed in the wrong order, the bendix kicking out will knock the stop collar off. Thrust washer will break and fall out. Continued use and the bendix will hammer the stop collar into the nose of the starter.

Greg's pic is worth a thousand words in this thread to show Dave what to look at or for.

Clay

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Thanks Brad, I'm glad I held on to it.
One more question is where do you get that kit?

I found the picture that alludes to E bay sellers have them. Any starter/alternator shop should have them on hand, but of course the net is probably easier if you don't have a rebuilder locally.

Local rebuilders are a vanishing breed. I don't know of any local rebuilders in my neck of the woods, I live between Dayton and Columbus, I know there are some in those cities.

[dpoltzer]

Here are a few pics of the problem starter. Dave

[dpoltzer]

Also, I rotated the driver gear and it only turns in one directin. Dave

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Is that the snap ring groove visible in this pic?



If so, the parts got installed wrong. Also would explain why it worked good for a little while. Took several hits from the bendix before it knocked the collar off.

Clay