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Old 10-08-2020, 11:28 AM
stellar stellar is offline
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I just ran a starter with battery connected to R post and starter did not stay energized. It kicked in moving the drive forward and released when S post was disconnected. It seems to be a mechanical problem in the starter or solenoid. Hopefully he can mount a different starter and see what happens.


Last edited by stellar; 10-08-2020 at 11:29 AM. Reason: more
  #82  
Old 10-08-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stellar View Post
I just ran a starter with battery connected to R post and starter did not stay energized. It kicked in moving the drive forward and released when S post was disconnected. It seems to be a mechanical problem in the starter or solenoid. Hopefully he can mount a different starter and see what happens.
OP Dave has posted several times that the starter bench test good.

If something was up with "hold in" solenoid windings, The starter would continue to run during a bench test, when power was removed from the 'S' terminal. Since electric motors use more amps, under load than they do free reving, .a potential 'hold in' problem would be worse on the bench than it would turning the engine over. Just from more available power.

Volt reading on 'S' terminal, with starter hung up running, is coming from the lower lug on the solenoid cap.

S (pull in) does not drop completely out when the solenoid and starter are energized. If it did, no starter would quit when power was removed from 'S'.

So I'm sticking with mechanical problem when the strarter is under load turning the engine. Drive gear pulling fork and shoving the plunger far enough to keep the switch closed in the solenoid cap. Should be enough slack for the plunger to back up an 1/8th inch or so when power is cut to the S terminal.

A weak return spring and pressure/load between drive gear and ring gear could make it hard for the drive gear to slide back. Power to the starter motor is suppose to cut off all the same when the solenoid is de-energized. From that little bit of slack required for it to happen.

IMO
Clay

  #83  
Old 10-09-2020, 05:15 AM
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I have gone back & read all 5 pages of this thread. I still think this is an electrical problem.

Starter was bench tested & also stripped/tested by an expert, posts 20, 25 & 46.
Seems most unlikely to be a mech problem, or internal elec problem with the starter/sol.

Maybe a misprint, but shim thickness was 7/32", post 9, which is very thick. Why??

Removal of the wire on the R terminal was suggested in post 5, 80 but OP has not indicated whether this test was done. If this was done & the wiring is correct, the engine will not fire in cranking mode because supply voltage is removed from the ign coil. This is why in my last post I suggested a separate battery for this test.

Post 79, Stellar.
Due to a wiring fault/problem, sol could remain energised from the R terminal after releasing the ign sw to run positio. This is because a relay/sol requires more current to initially energise, but once energise will stay energised with less holding current. So I am suggesting that through the R wire, the sol is getting enough current to hold it energised, but not enough to initially energise it. This is where voltage readings by themselves can be misleading in some cases without knowing what else is in the circuit.

  #84  
Old 10-09-2020, 05:44 AM
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Geoff,
With the starter hung up running, power from R doesn't count compared to the positive battery lug.

Clay

  #85  
Old 10-09-2020, 06:26 AM
stellar stellar is offline
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To remove the R post wire would be an easy test to do, so he should try it. I doubt if it would make any difference as I ran a starter with the R post connected directly to the battery and the starter did not stay engaged. Post 81. Post 38 pic #3 clearly shows a problem that could cause the starter to stay engaged. It was taken back to the EXPERT that said it looked OK. It doesn't look OK to me. Quick S stated that there was a possibility that the retaining ring was installed backwards. The rebuilder may have installed it backwards a second time if it was wrong the first time. I would take a good look there again. If it is showing the groove again that is probably where the problem lies. The retaining ring could be worn out or the snap ring could be worn or not of the correct wire diameter, or the groove in the armature may be worn.

  #86  
Old 10-09-2020, 08:47 AM
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Why would it work in bench tests all the time but never when in the car?
(seems the starter gear/snap ring would be wrong still in bench tests)



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  #87  
Old 10-09-2020, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
Why would it work in bench tests all the time but never when in the car?
(seems the starter gear/snap ring would be wrong still in bench tests)


Under load (turning the engine) the twist in the drive grooves forces the bendix as far as it can go out. Too far will pull on the fork, which shoves the plunger far enough to close the solenoid switch. Lack of slack keeps the starter running when this happens.

Bendix isn't forced out from load when it's free reving on the bench.

The two nubs on the fork. that work the bendix in and out, need a little slack so the plunger can back up enough for the switch to open when power is cut to the S terminal.

Energized solenoid (electro magnet part) is the only thing that's suppose to move the plunger far enough to close the solenoid switch. If mechanical force over rides that (from lack of slack), the starter will continue to run untill load is removed. That's battery cable off or engine firing up.

This ain't rocket science. It's just how our starters are suppose to work.
Clay

  #88  
Old 10-09-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
he twist in the drive grooves forces the bendix as far as it can go out.
I had always read that the Bendix worked opposite of this?

It was intended to help push the plunger back when the engine over-ran the speed of the pinion gear. With the friction and other things trying to keep the pinion gear engaged while cranking and then running, it would help 'push' the plunger back enough to disengage the copper disc in solenoid, thus taking all power away from starter and solenoid.



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  #89  
Old 10-09-2020, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
I had always read that the Bendix worked opposite of this?

It was intended to help push the plunger back when the engine over-ran the speed of the pinion gear. With the friction and other things trying to keep the pinion gear engaged while cranking and then running, it would help 'push' the plunger back enough to disengage the copper disc in solenoid, thus taking all power away from starter and solenoid.


Starter turning engine bendix goes out.

Engine outruns starter bendix and the gear slips. If the gear didn't slip.. the bendix would be forced back in.

Solenoid switch is suppose to open when power is removed from S terminal.
No matter where the bendix is. Then plunger return spring does it's job.

Clay

  #90  
Old 10-09-2020, 01:31 PM
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Had to look it up on the net:
(most of my electronic books are in Illinois)

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The solenoid also closes high-current contacts for the starter motor, which begins to turn. Once the engine starts, the key-operated switch is opened, a spring in the solenoid assembly pulls the pinion gear away from the ring gear, and the starter motor stops. The starter's pinion is clutched to its drive shaft through an overrunning sprag clutch which permits the pinion to transmit drive in only one direction. In this manner, drive is transmitted through the pinion to the flywheel ring gear, but if the pinion remains engaged (as for example because the operator fails to release the key as soon as the engine starts, or if there is a short and the solenoid remains engaged), the pinion will spin independently of its drive shaft. This prevents the engine driving the starter, for such backdrive would cause the starter to spin so fast as to fly apart.



The sprag clutch arrangement would preclude the use of the starter as a generator if employed in the hybrid scheme mentioned above, unless modifications were made. The standard starter motor is typically designed for intermittent use, which would preclude its use as a generator. The starter's electrical components are designed only to operate for typically under 30 seconds before overheating (by too-slow dissipation of heat from ohmic losses), to save weight and cost. Most automobile owner manuals instruct the operator to pause for at least ten seconds after each ten or fifteen seconds of cranking the engine, when trying to start an engine that does not start immediately.



This overrunning-clutch pinion arrangement was phased into use beginning in the early 1960s; before that time, a Bendix drive was used.



The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helically cut drive shaft. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to ride forward on the helix and thus engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back down the helical shaft and thus out of mesh with the ring gear.[6] This has the disadvantage that the gears will disengage if the engine fires briefly but does not continue to run.


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  #91  
Old 10-09-2020, 03:18 PM
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64K question. Why would it work in bench tests all the time but never when in the car?
(seems the starter gear/snap ring would be wrong still in bench tests)

It would seem that way but it isn't always the case. I think lateral pressure and centrifugal force will help hold it in. The drive will go deeper into the ring gear having even more surface area involved . If the pinion rides ofer the snap ring it can get stuck or if there is a lip on the armature shaft groove the bushing can get stuck. It is probably something simple, but I think the problem will be found in that area. Shaft groove,snap ring or ring retainer. I hope we soon find out. See Groucho for the 64K

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Old 10-10-2020, 03:43 AM
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Quick Silver,

'With the starter hung up, power from the R terminal doesn't count', post 84.

It does count. If there is sufficient voltage at the R terminal & enough current to back it up, the hold-in winding will remain energised until either the wire is removed from the R terminal or a battery lead removed.

The OP states early in this thread that the car was 'restored'. If that included a new wiring harness, then maybe some wires are coming into contact that shouldn't be.

  #93  
Old 10-12-2020, 01:48 PM
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Default Another Update

Charged the battery fully overnight. Took battery and the starter to the local NAPA store for testing. Batter was load tested and passed tests. Starter was also tested including amp draw test and it passed too. So I am back to square one on this!

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Old 10-12-2020, 02:49 PM
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Try a different starter to see if it's the starter or car?



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  #95  
Old 10-12-2020, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
Try a different starter to see if it's the starter or car?


... or a different car with your starter

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  #96  
Old 10-12-2020, 05:13 PM
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Good one, probably better idea!



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  #97  
Old 10-13-2020, 03:25 AM
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You are only back to square one if you tried the test I described in post #78.

  #98  
Old 10-15-2020, 08:00 PM
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Default Test update.

Geoff: Per Post # 78: I removed the black wire and the yellow/white wire from the + side of the coil and separated them from touching anything. I then put a jumper cable from the + terminal of the coil to the + side of another battery. I connected the black jumper cable to the "-" side of each of the batteries. Released the ignition key from the start to the run position and the starter still continues to spin!!!! Removed the negative cable from the battery and then starter stops spinning. By the way; the main engine wiring harness is brand new from American Auto Wire.

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  #99  
Old 10-16-2020, 04:23 AM
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Dave,
A new wiring harness. The wire going to the R terminal on the starter might be connected or shorted somehow to other wires in the new harness.

To remove all doubt about this wire: on the starter, remove the wire on the R terminal.
Repeat test as in your last post.

If starter does not disengage, then I think it has to be some weird mechanical problem.

  #100  
Old 10-17-2020, 09:29 AM
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Default Yet another test!!!

I tried something a bit different: removed the neutral safety switch from the steering column with the wires still attached. Attempted to start car and per usual the starter continues to spin after releasing key. I then quickly removed the connector with the two purple wires from the neutral safety switch and the starter still continued to spin. Then removed negative battery cable from battery until starter stopped spinning. So what does this tell us??

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