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  #61  
Old 10-13-2021, 11:02 AM
LEGACY_GN LEGACY_GN is offline
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Originally Posted by Radman View Post
Well GM had better sell a lot of cars in China, because I am not buying. I am actually starting to look at Mazda.
Ok with buying a foreign mazda but not Ok with buying a Buick. Makes sense.

In the early 90s many GTO owners had a Buick Grand national.

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Old 10-13-2021, 11:58 AM
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My takeaway as well!
Yes me too, are you sure it wasn't an 89 T type?
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  #63  
Old 10-13-2021, 02:29 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Originally Posted by ta6point6 View Post
IMO GM should have done away with GMC a long time ago. The Chevy and GMC truck is basically the same thing, yes the GMC is supposed to be more refined truck but to such a small degree it does not matter. Even if GM thought they would loose the GMC crowd to Ford or Dodge trucks GM has been losing customers anyway.
I agree with your post but understand there was little to gain for GM by doing so. Other than saving a few bucks in tooling costs for different exterior trim and emblems, they are the same vehicles, as you said. But GM makes more money on each GMC sale because the price structure built in. Customers know Chevy are the "Cheap" trucks and GMC are the "nicer ones" They have been conditioned. "Cheap" is tongue in cheek when a Chevy pickup in medium trim level is 70K!!. Also, the existing dealer structure had GMC as a truck division for Buick, Cadillac, Pontiac, Oldsmobile divisions. With Cadillac and Buick left, GMC was their truck to sell without having to carry Chevy cars and SUV's. Yes they could have killed GMC off. Not sure they would have gained much.

  #64  
Old 10-13-2021, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ta6point6 View Post
IMO GM should have done away with GMC a long time ago. The Chevy and GMC truck is basically the same thing, yes the GMC is supposed to be more refined truck but to such a small degree it does not matter. Even if GM thought they would loose the GMC crowd to Ford or Dodge trucks GM has been losing customers anyway.
You're right that there's no meaningful difference between them. GMC trucks exist solely so the non-Chevy dealers have a truck that they can sell.

Eric

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  #65  
Old 10-13-2021, 08:30 PM
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Sorry, I disagree with you on that one Eric.

My uncle had a GMC franchise along with the Cadillac, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac Franchises.
Sold a bunch of every one of those vehicles.

A lot of the customers refused to buy from the Chevrolet guy because he was not a nice person, simply put.
They would drive to another town to buy that brand vs deal with the guy.

I was always told the Chevrolet Brand was the entry level brand and the Pontiac was THE
brand right under the top of the line Cadillac vehicles.

"GMC that primarily focuses on trucks and utility vehicles. GMC currently makes SUVs, pickup trucks, vans, and light-duty trucks, catered to a premium-based market. In the past, GMC also produced fire trucks, ambulances, heavy-duty trucks, military vehicles, motorhomes, transit buses, and medium duty trucks."

I personally have not seen any Chevrolet fire trucks, ambulances, heavy-duty trucks, military vehicles, motorhomes, or transit buses, but they may be out there.

So I agree with the representation that GM has a bunch of sales markets above
that that Chevrolet cannot support or does not want to support.

GM WHQ wants to sell as many vehicles as they can, GMC helps with that desire.

Tom V.

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  #66  
Old 10-13-2021, 11:29 PM
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And who currently builds GM medium duty trucks (4 and 5 series)? Not GM, Navistar/IH builds them for GM. They're built right here in Springfield Ohio. Those medium duty trucks are both, chevy and GMC, the emblems/nameplates are the only difference.

Since post mid 60s chevy and GMC trucks have been sharing most all of the same parts. The last major difference between chevy and GMC trucks was the mid 60s, the chevy used for the most part the independent rear coil spring truck arm suspension in most models, GMC kept using conventional leaf springs in the rear. It is noted that you could special order a chevy in those years with leaf springs, or order a GMC with the coil spring/trailing arm suspension.

The chevy stayed with their 235 inline six, then in 63 they offered their newer design straight six, offered in 230, 250 and 292 Cu In. The GMC standard 6 was the 305 V6. After 1966 they started using the chevy powerplants in the GMC trucks. Starting in 1967 is when GMC and chevy became homogenized into virtually the same truck. As the years went on the two brands became virtually the same trucks built on the same line, with the same parts, save for emblems, and interiors.

By 2009 they could have easily dumped either GMC, or chevy trucks, and stopped duplicating the same vehicle as they used the excuse that Pontiac was a duplication of other GM brands vying for the same customer. The difference is GMC customers will pay a premium price for virtually nothing, other than the myth that GMC uses better quality parts than chevy does.

Like saying a chevy/olds/Pontiac/buick brake rotor isn't the same quality if you buy the same part # at a chevy dealer, you rotor is substandard to the same rotor bought at a buick dealer.............

You have all heard the slogan on TV, "GMC trucks, professional grade". It's a crock of crap that is kept alive by the GMC sales/PR people, and has been for decades.


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  #67  
Old 10-14-2021, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I was always told the Chevrolet Brand was the entry level brand and the Pontiac was THE brand right under the top of the line Cadillac vehicles.
Of course, from the late 50s to the 70s Pontiac was considered the performance division, but as far as the company hierarchy goes I believe it was as follows.

Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet

  #68  
Old 10-14-2021, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Of course, from the late 50s to the 70s Pontiac was considered the performance division, but as far as the company hierarchy goes I believe it was as follows.

Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet
The above is the universally understood historical GM hierarchy.

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  #69  
Old 10-14-2021, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
And who currently builds GM medium duty trucks (4 and 5 series)? Not GM, Navistar/IH builds them for GM. They're built right here in Springfield Ohio. Those medium duty trucks are both, chevy and GMC, the emblems/nameplates are the only difference.

Since post mid 60s chevy and GMC trucks have been sharing most all of the same parts. The last major difference between chevy and GMC trucks was the mid 60s, the chevy used for the most part the independent rear coil spring truck arm suspension in most models, GMC kept using conventional leaf springs in the rear. It is noted that you could special order a chevy in those years with leaf springs, or order a GMC with the coil spring/trailing arm suspension.

The chevy stayed with their 235 inline six, then in 63 they offered their newer design straight six, offered in 230, 250 and 292 Cu In. The GMC standard 6 was the 305 V6. After 1966 they started using the chevy powerplants in the GMC trucks. Starting in 1967 is when GMC and chevy became homogenized into virtually the same truck. As the years went on the two brands became virtually the same trucks built on the same line, with the same parts, save for emblems, and interiors.

By 2009 they could have easily dumped either GMC, or chevy trucks, and stopped duplicating the same vehicle as they used the excuse that Pontiac was a duplication of other GM brands vying for the same customer. The difference is GMC customers will pay a premium price for virtually nothing, other than the myth that GMC uses better quality parts than chevy does.

Like saying a chevy/olds/Pontiac/buick brake rotor isn't the same quality if you buy the same part # at a chevy dealer, you rotor is substandard to the same rotor bought at a buick dealer.............

You have all heard the slogan on TV, "GMC trucks, professional grade". It's a crock of crap that is kept alive by the GMC sales/PR people, and has been for decades.

While most of this has merit, GMC does have its own design teams, and engineers.
I cite the Multi Pro tail gate as a very recent example.
GMC designed and built them and had a 3 year EXCLUSIVE on them.
NO Chevy is a DENALI...
GMC is also a RPO CODE for GM/// its RPOGMC.

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  #70  
Old 10-14-2021, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
And who currently builds GM medium duty trucks (4 and 5 series)? Not GM, Navistar/IH builds them for GM. They're built right here in Springfield Ohio.

I wonder if they have improved their steel prep? GM has been the rust winner for years up here in the rust belt. My Guess is GM still isn't going to spend the extra money involved to prevent rust, but its pretty bad. Not seeing the 2015-2019 body style rusting out yet, but seeing they are hitting that magical 6 year mark, I am sure its coming. Up here, most Chevy & GMC trucks loose their rockers & box sides before they are 10 years old. I have owned them & see them on the roads. Toyota has such a better body from a corrosion perspective Wasn't that way years ago, but somewhere along the line toyota changed something that makes them hold out better. Yes, I know about the Toyota truck frame issue, But toyota did offer replacements for these vehicles.

Hard to pay 70K for todays chevrolet knowing its likely going to be rusting out in 6-10 years. They have been this way for decades. nothing changes. I know Ford & Dodge have the same issues, But Toyota is doing something different where they are not rusting like they did in the 80's & 90's

you never see a rusting 2007+ Tundra. 14 years old now & many of them still look great.

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  #71  
Old 10-14-2021, 09:57 AM
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Hmmm, I've seen plenty of rotted out Tundras around here.

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  #72  
Old 10-14-2021, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
While most of this has merit, GMC does have its own design teams, and engineers.
I cite the Multi Pro tail gate as a very recent example.
GMC designed and built them and had a 3 year EXCLUSIVE on them.
NO Chevy is a DENALI...
GMC is also a RPO CODE for GM/// its RPOGMC.
And they (GMC) did have the proprietary 4 wheel steer for a few years before they scrapped it because of problems, plus no one ordered it. The GMC design team is apparently tasked with coming up with gimmicks to add on to chevy trucks to justify their existence.

The point was, GMC is a rebadged chevy truck in 2009 and could have been done away with on the same grounds Pontiac was done away with, it was a redundant division of another GM division.

Pontiac had cars that other divisions didn't have in 2009 also, the G8 and the Vibe were those cars. And same as GM truck division currently, they were built by outside plants of other companies. After Pontiac folds GM takes the G8 platform and awards it to chevy. The Vibe/Matrix plant in CA is decommissioned and both cars disappear from the GM, and Toyota lines.

I own a Holden made GTO since new, it is a very good quality car, better than most continental north American made cars are. The G8 had to be a good quality car also, as it was never maligned as problem ridden by the automotive press. I may own one someday from the used market.

I also own a 2008 Pontiac Vibe since new, and have people in our family that have owned them. For an inexpensive commuter small wagon, they are incredibly durable. Both of the Vibes are well past 300, 000 miles. The odometers on Vibes stop at 299,999 miles, both cars exceeded that limit years ago. My wife drove hers recently from Ohio to Alabama and returned, zero problems.

GM, and the US Governments car czar both failed to axe the division for the reasons they stated. I believe either they were incredibly ignorant of the facts, or there is more underlying reasons than the average layperson knows as to why Pontiac was axed from GM. I know that all GM divisions were at the time incredibly mismanaged, so picking Pontiac as the worst of the batch, is something I'll never know if it was true, or not. It doesn't mean it stings any less though, and I'll never support GM by buying another car from them, as well as I'll never support any of their competitors by buying from them.

I have have been a mechanic (second generation, Dad worked at a Pontiac dealership back in the 30s, always owned Pontiacs too) and have very strong convictions about Pontiac. I will drive the cars I have, as well as look for well preserved lower mile examples to replace my cars as time passes, until they take my drivers license, or I die. I'm committed to continue driving Pontiac automobiles until that time. The Pontiaddict avatar that came from the shirt I designed, and sold, before the demise of Pontiac, is the torch I'll carry, until I can't. I've thought my plan out since 2009, and will stand by it. The signature about "100% Pontiacs in my driveway" isn't just words, it's conviction of a principle.

And the R.I.P. shirt I designed, and sold, shows fully about how I feel about Pontiacs demise. I have multiple shirts that I designed, and sold (15 different examples), that I wear daily as support to the Pontiac legend. I can't tell you how many hundreds of people read the shirts, and stop me to discuss their fond memories of Pontiac automobiles, and lament the decision to axe Pontiac, over buick.

I'm selecting the T shirt for today, I'm going to wear the R.I.P. one..............

I'm done, carry on.

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If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated


Last edited by Sirrotica; 10-14-2021 at 12:39 PM.
  #73  
Old 10-14-2021, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
And they (GMC) did have the proprietary 4 wheel steer for a few years before they scrapped it because of problems, plus no one ordered it. The GMC design team is apparently tasked with coming up with gimmicks to add on to chevy trucks to justify their existence.

The point was, GMC is a rebadged chevy truck in 2009 and could have been done away with on the same grounds Pontiac was done away with, it was a redundant division of another GM division.

Pontiac had cars that other divisions didn't have in 2009 also, the G8 and the Vibe were those cars. And same as GM truck division currently, they were built by outside plants of other companies. After Pontiac folds GM takes the G8 platform and awards it to chevy. The Vibe/Matrix plant in CA is decommissioned and both cars disappear from the GM, and Toyota lines.

I own a Holden made GTO since new, it is a very good quality car, better than most continental north American made cars are. The G8 had to be a good quality car also, as it was never maligned as problem ridden by the automotive press. I may own one someday from the used market.

I also own a 2008 Pontiac Vibe since new, and have people in our family that have owned them. For an inexpensive commuter small wagon, they are incredibly durable. Both of the Vibes are well past 300, 000 miles. The odometers on Vibes stop at 299,999 miles, both cars exceeded that limit years ago. My wife drove hers recently from Ohio to Alabama and returned, zero problems.

GM, and the US Governments car czar both failed to axe the division for the reasons they stated. I believe either they were incredibly ignorant of the facts, or there is more underlying reasons than the average layperson knows as to why Pontiac was axed from GM. I know that all GM divisions were at the time incredibly mismanaged, so picking Pontiac as the worst of the batch, is something I'll never know if it was true, or not. It doesn't mean it stings any less though, and I'll never support GM by buying another car from them, as well as I'll never support any of their competitors by buying from them.

I have have been a mechanic (second generation, Dad worked at a Pontiac dealership back in the 30s, always owned Pontiacs too) and have very strong convictions about Pontiac. I will drive the cars I have, as well as look for well preserved lower mile examples to replace my cars as time passes, until they take my drivers license, or I die. I'm committed to continue driving Pontiac automobiles until that time. The Pontiaddict avatar that came from the shirt I designed, and sold, before the demise of Pontiac, is the torch I'll carry, until I can't. I've thought my plan out since 2009, and will stand by it. The signature about "100% Pontiacs in my driveway" isn't just words, it's conviction of a principle.

And the R.I.P. shirt I designed, and sold, shows fully about how I feel about Pontiacs demise. I have multiple shirts that I designed, and sold (15 different examples), that I wear daily as support to the Pontiac legend. I can't tell you how many hundreds of people read the shirts, and stop me to discuss their fond memories of Pontiac automobiles, and lament the decision to axe Pontiac, over buick.

I'm selecting the T shirt for today, I'm goin!g to wear the R.I.P. one..............

I'm done, carry on.
Very well said! I'm right with you as far as driving Pontiacs. I currently have four in the garage, two of them with less than 70k on the clock. At my annual mileage per year, spread out over 4 vehicles I should be good well into my eighties. And I'm always on the look-out for low mileage examples.

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  #74  
Old 10-14-2021, 07:45 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Of course, from the late 50s to the 70s Pontiac was considered the performance division, but as far as the company hierarchy goes I believe it was as follows.

Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet
Agree, that was the GM plan with the demographics to go with it:

Chevrolet: 16-25 year olds
Pontiac: 25-45 year olds
Oldsmobile: 45-65 year olds
Buick: 65-80 year olds
Cadillac: Too Old to drive, care, or have a chauffeur to drive you around

(this is intended to be humorous)

  #75  
Old 10-15-2021, 08:12 PM
Kadilacdan Kadilacdan is offline
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Originally Posted by Radman View Post
Well GM had better sell a lot of cars in China, because I am not buying. I am actually starting to look at Mazda.
LOL, aren't Ford and Mazda in bed together?

  #76  
Old 10-15-2021, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kadilacdan View Post
aren't Ford and Mazda in bed together?
They were partnered with Mazda from 1974 until 2015, but that relationship is over. Mazda currently has a joint agreement with Toyota to share technology.

  #77  
Old 10-16-2021, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Of course, from the late 50s to the 70s Pontiac was considered the performance division, but as far as the company hierarchy goes I believe it was as follows.

Cadillac
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Chevrolet
For trucks, it is:

Chevrolet - the guy working at the construction site
GMC - the foreman of the construction site
Cadillac - the guy that owns the construction site

K

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  #78  
Old 10-16-2021, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
For trucks, it is:

Chevrolet - the guy working at the construction site
GMC - the foreman of the construction site
Cadillac - the guy that owns the construction site

K
Keith, is the car division list correct before the demise of olds and Pontiac? My father always said, the olds was the experimental division to try out most of the major engineering ideas. Since they were first with things such as FWD (Toronado), diesel passenger car engines, etc, that seems correct....

I'd just would like the opinion of a former GM white collar employee....

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  #79  
Old 10-16-2021, 10:35 AM
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Not that it really matters what I think, but I prefer the look of GMC trucks over Chev and everything else in almost any/every year they have been made. The 2020+, 2500-3500HD being the exception, now I like the look of FORD,... Crap... what was GM thinking, letting GMC and Chevrolet design those ugly beasts. I own a new GMC 1500, it looks pretty good, but I would have bought a 2500 duramax if they didn't look like a Garbage truck from every angle.

  #80  
Old 10-16-2021, 11:47 AM
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I always liked the Garbage Truck Option.

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