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Old 01-04-2022, 10:55 PM
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gto19 gto19 is offline
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Default Removing factory exhaust manifold bolts

I have had some Pontiac bad luck lately . So here it goes . Today my goal was to install my Gardner exhaust on my 69 Grand Prix HO with the original long branch headers and ran into a little issue with one of manifolds…. See pic

What is the best way to remove that bolt without breaking the manifold? I’m pretty sure the bolts have never been removed. The exhaust looks original minus the mufflers.

Thanks

Once again the pics rotated
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:24 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Need to ask a couple questions. Are you planning to remove the manifolds from the engine or were you hoping to just install the new exhaust system to the manifolds as-is in the car? From your pic, the manifold is already broken. A piece is missing. Do you have the broken little ear piece that's missing?

It would be much easier to make a professional looking repair with the manifolds removed. That ear could be re-formed with silicon/bronze welding rod by a good welder. If you have the piece, it could be reattached the same way.

On the car, things will be much more difficult. I would cut the head pipe to take the pressure off it. Then use a torch to get the area nice and hot and carefully work the bolts out. I would install a new stud in the hole and build the area up around it with flux brazing rod. It can be done, but it's pretty difficult working upside down. If you have invested in a Gardner exhaust system, my guess is you would be much happier removing the manifolds and having a more professional repair done. I just had a similar situation to deal with on a customers 63 Tempest. It had a 455 installed with the long branch manifolds. It was really packed in there. The engine had been installed 30 years ago so it was pretty crusty. Took about 5 hours to extract the manifolds without hurting anything. We saved them by being careful and taking our time. Good luck with it.

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Old 01-04-2022, 11:30 PM
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Thanks
Ya I probably will have to remove the manifold but I might just warm the car up and try and remove the bolt . Will see

Thanks

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Old 01-05-2022, 12:36 AM
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The bolt in the second photo looks like it may be bent? That will make it more difficult to remove without snapping. In any case I agree with cutting the old exhaust to get it out of the way and to reduce the stress on the bolts, and then use heat. Just running the engine may not be enough, a torch is probably going to be required.

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Old 01-05-2022, 04:30 AM
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Heat the manifold red hot. Any other way the bolt will break. Or worse the manifold

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Old 01-05-2022, 07:56 AM
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Don’t heat it !
Even if you where able to get it red hot you will change the tempering on that bolt and only make it more brittle ( hard) and more likely to snap.
If you do snap the bolt after making it harder then for sure drilling it out will be extremely hard to do!

If it where me I would remove the exh manifolds, but seeing as what that bolt looks like your going g to bd snapping some of those bolts also, and then that forces you to yank that head to get back to square one.

If you get the car to a shop with a mechanic that’s good with a torch, he can melt that bolt out and then a heli coil can be installed, which it looks like what would have to be done even if YOU had got the bolt out already.

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Old 01-05-2022, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Don’t heat it !
Even if you where able to get it red hot you will change the tempering on that bolt and only make it more brittle ( hard) and more likely to snap.
If you do snap the bolt after making it harder then for sure drilling it out will be extremely hard to do!

If it where me I would remove the exh manifolds, but seeing as what that bolt looks like your going g to bd snapping some of those bolts also, and then that forces you to yank that head to get back to square one.

If you get the car to a shop with a mechanic that’s good with a torch, he can melt that bolt out and then a heli coil can be installed, which it looks like what would have to be done even if YOU had got the bolt out already.
Im pretty sure those bolts are already harder than Chinese arithmetic just from years of heat cycles.. heating them now is not going to make a difference on the hardness. Heat and wax is what I would try first..

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Old 01-05-2022, 12:06 PM
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Try to remove as much rust as possible on the bolt threads that will back out of the manifold. Do heat cycles. I also use a light duty impact wrench set on low (high will probably snap the bolt) to rattle the joint, tighten, loosen, etc. Successive cycles of the mentioned seem to work for me. Be patient, avoid the tendency to put a lot of torque on it initially.

George

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Old 01-05-2022, 12:13 PM
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It seems like a tight spot to work with. Since the threads are up, as said, use wax melted from the top so it can melt and find it's way down the threads. Then, tighten and loosen a bit at a time. You could actually fire it up to get warm to allow wax to find it's way in.

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Old 01-05-2022, 04:48 PM
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I have had some luck with heat and wax, but the manifold was loose, and I am far from a pro...

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Old 01-05-2022, 06:00 PM
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Thanks guys for all the tips and tricks

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Old 01-05-2022, 09:01 PM
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If you decide to try the wax trick, my best luck is to try this. Heat the area red hot first. Then let it cool for 2-3 minutes. Then apply the canning wax. If the wax vaporizes or smokes allot, it's still too hot. Wait another minute or so. The wax should melt, smoke just a little and it will make it's way in the joint by capillary action. This trick works fantastic on stuck tapered plugs like oil gallery plugs. They will almost come out with you fingers doing it this way. Brake bleeders too. Good luck.

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Old 01-05-2022, 10:06 PM
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I have used the wax idea on other bolts but never on exhaust bolts. It does work. Another idea for my mental toolbox.

george

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Old 01-05-2022, 10:28 PM
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Default Same issue, but my engine was out of the car. Here is what I did.

I too have a 428 HO engine in my car, so I cut the exhaust pipes off close to the manifolds first.
Then I removed the engine (I was going to pull it anyway, but there ultimately wasn't a good way to get to the manifolds and bolts, etc. without pulling the engine.
After the engine was out and on the stand, I got all but 4 of the bolts to come loose, but those 4 rounded off to the point that I ended up carefully grinding off the heads of the bolts and after using a countersink bit on a drill to finish up and ensure no remaining bolt material was there to interfere with manifold removal, I removed the manifold from the heads, carefully tapping using a dead blow rubber mallet and very carefully prying too, after using good penetrating oil on the rust welds between the manifolds and the bolts.

After easing the manifolds off, I tried to remove the remaining parts of the bolts, but even with heat, 2 of them snapped off in the heads.

In your case, once you get the manifolds off of the heads, the ear on the manifold can be repaired pretty easily by a competent welder.

I have cleaned up my manifolds, but now I have to get the remainder of the old bolts out of the head.

To deal with the broken manifold bolts, there is a good way to do this using copper tubing and the welder, but that project has been on hold for a while. Hope my method for removing the manifolds helps you get them off of the engine without further damage.

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Old 01-05-2022, 10:30 PM
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Anybody ever try Kroil? https://www.kroil.com/

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Old 01-06-2022, 12:01 AM
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From someone that has worked in a muffler shop, and lived in the rust belt all my life making my living for 50 years spinning wrenches. I have removed a ton of bolts from Pontiac exhaust manifolds, and any other brands over the years.

Heat the cast iron red hot and set the torque down on a impact wrench, or use a ratchet. If the bolt starts to squeak as it's coming out, stop and heat the cast iron up again, then after it's hot, try it again. You're most likely going to have to use an oxy acetylene torch to get enough heat to get it red hot.

The bolt in the picture will come out easily with heat. I've taken out much worse than that in one piece. All the worry about removing the old pipes before you try it, won't make any difference as long as you can get on the bolt heads. Pontiac engineers situated the bolts so they can be removed with the pipes on the car.

If the bolt head is undersized use a 14 MM socket on it, and of course a 6 point socket.

Drilling out grade 2 bolts that are made from cold roll steel isn't hard with a sharp drill. Cold roll bolts don't get hard no matter how many times it's heated and cooled. There isn't enough carbon content in them to get them to harden.

Be damn sure if you drill one out, that you get the drill in the center of the broken part, and follow the hole straight through. Getting the hole off center is going to mess the whole process up.

Penetrating oil on exhaust manifold bolts is pretty useless in my experience. heat causes the bolt to seize to the cast iron, and heat is the best way to free it up.

When you put it back together, use studs and brass manifold nuts, it will come apart easily the next time at room temperature, zero problems.

Having used cutting torches on many many exhaust systems over the years, I can burn a broken bolt out of cast iron manifolds. It takes some practice to learn to do it, but it can be done. When done, I can run a tap through the hole to remove the slag, and screw a bolt back into it......
An old timer showed me how to do this, saves a lot of time in an exhaust shop, when they don't come out 100% of the time.


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Old 01-06-2022, 12:15 AM
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Kroil, Liquid Wrench, PB Blast, Knock R Loose, homemade mixture of ATF and Acetone, and others. Many folks swear by each of these. There are some fun video's on Youtube testing and comparing all of them. Personally, if something is really, really rusted to death, none of them usually get the job done. I tend to use PB Blast because it's cheap and available anywhere. Kroil is almost 10 times as expensive and hasn't worked any better for me at least. I work on rusty crap every day. Actually got a book for Christmas called the Rusty Nut Bible by Chas Newport. A 252 page book about how to remove rusty nuts and bolts. Learning a few new techniques to try. The number one lesson is to work slowly and carefully. Once the fastener is rounded off beyond recognition or broken off, the project gets much tougher. Good luck to everyone dealing with this kind of stuff. Here are a few pics of the rusty crap that comes into my shop every day.
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Old 01-06-2022, 12:26 AM
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The head of the bolt is corroded, and smaller than it used to be. Instead of 9/16" sockets, use a slightly smaller 14mm.

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Old 01-06-2022, 08:57 AM
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I just sent for a Bolt Buster. See if it works per videos on my SD exhaust manifolds.I have oxy acetylene torches. I'm going to practice on dport manifolds on bench first. That Rusty Nut Bible sounds like an interesting book for my library.Im ckg it out thank you.


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Old 01-06-2022, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post

Good luck to everyone dealing with this kind of stuff. Here are a few pics of the rusty crap that comes into my shop every day.
I think the picture in the middle are the missing pieces from my Carmry's rear crossmember

I agree about the Kroil being no better than PB

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