[Baron Von Zeppelin]

S248. 69 TA Ram3 Auto AC = $150k Hammer

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

S257. 76 TA 455 4spd Black & Gold 50th Anny = $190k --- Bid Goes On
Yes you read that right

oooooookay.

[1965gp]

Damn!!

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

S257. 76 TA 455 4spd Black & Gold 50th Anny = $190k --- Bid Goes On
Yes you read that right

oooooookay.

(Mark) MCronk and I have the conversation often about the cars with reserve. Just because it bid up to 190k doesn't mean there was anyone willing to pay that or bid that high. If the seller had a 200K reserve, they can just run it up to that amount without a bidder. Certainly a car worthy of a unusually high bid for a 76 but 200K?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 76 TA 455 4spd is a 997 out of 1000 point multi award winner at some big events.
No doubt it is extra super nice
And some folks stayed late to gun for it.
,,,,,, but .,.. no sale @ 190k
holy raviolli

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Yes we even know first hand about some of the tactics and smoke at these events regarding some reserves and the real money stopping a ways back.
But even the fact it is set that high is mind boggling
And a time slot that late.
weird

[necdb3]

U21 goes across tomorrow, VOE car

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

And that was a good point to bring up on auction scenarios and reserves.
If it got best of show at 2019 TA Nats , the owner might even be a member here.

But that was a bit of a shocker ! lol

[joegpho]

Reading about re-stamps in the Judge tech section - and having talked to Chuck at the Cruising Tigers Pontiac show this past summer, how many of these cars have truly original blocks?
I know one of them had a re-stamp. The car that I liked of Chuck's that he showed at that show (he brought 2 of them) is the 70 Atoll Blue 4spd car with the highway friendly 4.33s.
I know he mentioned other cars but I had no idea he had this many.

[RamAirBirds]

Well We know that somewhere along the line (I believe in the Judging for GTOAA and MCACN) the term "Numbers Matching" just meant that the numbers on the block matched the VIN etc. Could be a replaced date correct block with a RE-STAMP and it would pass Judging. The NEW TERM being thrown around out there is "BORN WITH" Engine / Trans etc etc. A little slight of hand change that has happened recently.
Many of those cars that passed over had SR Blocks or Date correct re-stamps.
I DO Know the 69 TA RAIV was in fact the original BORN WITH motor. That is for sure.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Here is a listing of the publicly known 70 RamAir IV Judge Convertibles

4 Speed Cars :

Red , Red , White Top
Red , Sandalwood , White Top
Pepper Green , Green , White Top
Pepper Green , Black , Black Top
Silver , Black , Black Top
Orbit Orange , Saddle , Gold Top


Automatic Cars:

Atoll Blue , Blue , White Top
Atoll Blue , Black , White Top
Silver , Black , Black Top
White , Black , Black Top
Granada Gold , Sandalwood , Gold Top
Black , Sandalwood , Sandalwood Top
Orbit Orange , Black , Black Top

I think all of them have been frame-off restored now except the White Automatic

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by joegpho

Reading about re-stamps in the Judge tech section - and having talked to Chuck at the Cruising Tigers Pontiac show this past summer, how many of these cars have truly original blocks?
I know one of them had a re-stamp.

My guess would be few of them. A lot of folks became very creative with stories of finding the "original" engines and reuniting them with their cars. I recall when the auction house wouldn't let the car be advertised with the "original" engine. It had to say numbers matching. It's almost as if these guys were trying to see whom could come up with the best tale. Remember that blown up RAIV engine block that was found in Switzerland and was original for a meticulously restored 70 GTO Convertible ...That was funny!

Another good question, how many of these cars maintain their original skeleton.... The bids maybe a bit different if restoration photos weren't posed.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

When I bought my first house, the seller had a Crystal Turqoise/parchment RAII '68 in decent shape with the TH400 and the 4.33 gear and he wanted to sell it to me for $3500. It was 1990,

That would be an incredible looking car in those colors.
The price was Right, but at the wrong time. Sure am sorry about that deal .
Hope it pops back up someday and joins our RamDeuce Roll Call list.
Thanks for the recount

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by g68mike

I had the opportunity to visit this collection many times over the years, and they were well cared for. I was fortunate enough to spend alot of time with the liberty blue 69 before it went to Chuck.

hi mike. are you the mike i was talking to friday about my dads 69 ram air 3 car?

[Mcronk]

Lets just say we did see some "monkey" business that we can definitely confirm was misrepresented. But first you have to understand how Mecum handles cars.

Read the auction rules very carefully. Mecum has a disclaimer they are not legaly liable for any representation of a car and that all information is provided by owner. The only legal responsibility Mecum has is to verify the VIN on the title matches the VIN on the car. Every morning before the auction they stand up and go over some rules. They adamantly say "know what you are bidding on" ... when the gravel drops the car is sold and will change ownership no ifs ands buts about it. Consider they have thousands of cars of all different brands/makes/models to process on check in. It would be impossible to go over each car and check the numbers EVEN if they had the expertise/knowledge across a diverse group of cars. So my advice to anyone looking to buy there. Focus on a couple of cars, do your homework, go back and look at the car several times over a couple of days. I saw things later on a second or third look I did not catch the first time. There are so many things to see and look at it can be very distracting.

As for bidding Dave (necdb3) makes a good point. The house (Mecum) will bid on a car to get things going. They will not bid on a car once it meets reserve. People don't understand that if they did not do this we would be on some cars FOREVER before bidders got serious and never get a quarter of the way through the cars listed. It is basically a time management strategy not a way to "artificially" inflate the price. If the car does not meet reserve it does not sale. Yes it is in Mecums best interest to make a sale. They make more money on a sale than a no sale for sure. That is why they will neogtiate with sellers on reserve and commision and the same with bidders if bids get very close to a sale. They do not do this on every car and it seems mostly for the high dollar cars depending on how realistic the reserve is. We have seen Dana bid on NR cars sometimes. There were several high profile collections that went through with no reserve. I can only speculate he may have been interested in buying if he could get it at specific price.

So now I will comment on the "misrepresented" vehicle. I am not one to "talk trash" about someones car so I will try and make this as benign as possible. However I am sure some will figure this out very easily.

There was a certain Pontiac represented as a specfic model. The car was done very nicely and to high standards. A few items were incorrect but for the most part a very nice car. We looked at this car several times over the auction and I entertained the idea of possibly owning it. However on the morning it was to go across the stage my friend and I were looking at the car with several other people. He then turned to me and said "did you see the paint code"? I then walked over and looked at the cowl tag. I also noticed that for the specific model it was missing an important 3 digit code on the tag. It was very obvious at this point the car was not what it was advertised as. When the car came up to the stage they announced it as the specific model advertised. Remember what I said about information on these car? Mecum goes by what the owner provides them. The car brought very good money for what it was advertised as. We were surprised we had not caught that discrepancy earlier. At first we were not serious about this car and only inspected it as a comparison to others. As I mentioned stay focused and do your homework so you can verify codes etc...

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

...Remember that blown up RAIV engine block that was found in Switzerland and was original for a meticulously restored 70 GTO Convertible ...

ouch
There is only one known car that fits that description (70 GTO Ram4 Convt - Restored) so that slims down those factors to about 1 car. Gold 4spd. with an SR
The only other is an unrestored White Automatic.

Did they have to re-adjust the restoration from it being original engine - to SR block - afterwards ?
That would have been awkward.

EDIT
just wanted to clarify that the White Automatic in this post is a 70 GTO Convt. ( born-with engine = intact) , not a Judge.
Since there is also a White Judge Convt. that is also unrestored.
2 different cars

[Mcronk]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Mcronk you may not see this in time , but if you do , please get a picture of the trim tag or make note of the build date on tag.
This is the invoice , but their placard says they have Buildsheet too -- if you can get a picture of that.
It will tell its first purpose.

Its a multi-invoice car that was ordered within PMD for use within PMD.
There would have been other invoice(s) as well.
The most interesting thing I see on the invoice is its exit code is 35-998 ,
usually these from the motherland used 35-997 as exit code.
35-998 was the designation for Engineering Dept.
This car possibly has several invoice copies for multiple duties within the camp.

It is much rarer than the 1 of 241 they have listed.
241 is the number for all 455 RamAir AUTOMATIC cars hardtop & convertible total.
We know of about maybe a dozen convertibles.

I think also 241 , or similar smallish amount was also number of 455 HO convertibles
But that doesn't apply to how many had RamAir - maybe 10% of that number.

Sorry I did not see this in time to get a picture of the cowl tag. Thanks for the link and info on that car. Sounds like a very interesting history that would be fun to research. I looked at the car twice over several days. Went over it with my paint gauge etc. Beautifull well restored car and after reading the production numbers and rarity have a different appreciation for it. I did not see a build sheet or additional invoices with the car. They may have been in the car or kept at the Mecum office. A lot of times important paperwork is not left in the car and you can go to the office and ask to inspect paperwork.

[Mcronk]

My opinion on block restamps.

I have no concrete data to back this up, but considering how these high performance cars were used when new and as they passed through other owners, I would say most of these cars no longer have thier original born with drivetrains. Walking around it seemed a lot of cars were advertised as having original drivetrain. I grew up driving these cars and when we broke a motor we did not worry about numbers matching. We found another similar or better motor and in the car it went.

I think it is important to make the distinction between born with and correct. A restorer can put together a correct date code/cast number/block code motor for a car. A "born with" motor is the one it left the factory with. I can appreciate a correct motor and for a lot of these cars that is as close as you can ever get if the original motor is long gone. All things equal a car with its born with motor should bring more money than a car with a correct motor.

I looked over a couple of the high profile Pontiac cars (GTOs) and took pictures of block stamp/VIN/casting codes on blocks. First off let me say I have been doing this a long time but am still learning new things. Also I believe "never say never" philosophy. The factory made mistakes and these were mass produced cars. My observations are as the cars were presented at this auction. Some of these cars have gone through several owners since restored and who knows what may have happened. But I did see a block code on a block that did not have the proper casting code. The VIN on the block matched the car but the casting code was not listed for a 4 bolt main block. The casting code for the 4 bolt main block is well documented/known. The car was well documented and has PHS to confirm it. So I will just leave it at that and continue my research/education.

[turbo69bird]

Well since we are going there on block re- stamps (god help us all lol)
Here’s MY .02 that’s worth about .01 or less-

I have had this discussion a few times w friends, I personally like to see an SR because I know it’s honest. It’s someone saying hey I didn’t have my block but this block is just like it. Others say they are misrepresenting that an SR block was swapped for their factory block by warranty .

I’ve been around the RA thing a while but on the race side of things not the restoration side but a lot of guys in racing re-stamped stuff early on for stock class. To be legal this includes remaking casting numbers letters etc- All makes.
This is almost expected in the corvette / camaro world from what I’ve seen even on the restoration side.
I may have a different perspective if I had a born with car but I don’t, I have an SR that came from the dealer that raced my car, that I can trace back to the beginning . It was bought from Stephens at the same time as the RAV pro stock engine and was part of the Stephens racing parts haul in the early 70s .

So understanding that everyone is jaded by their own cars and experiences let’s move on.

I also know of a few guys who allegedly re-stamped blocks on high end cars. I heard about it from the racing side. But these were restorers . They took an EQUIVALENT blocks and made it match the car. These cars have sold and owners are quite happy, idk if they were told or not told. But I also don’t know that it matters. . Yes they were high end cars, but the block didn’t know what it was going to be when Poured as long as it was the same kind of block (these weren’t necessarily pontiacs BTW) let’s say RA IV for RAIV and date correct or RAII for RAII or RAIII for RAIII who really cares if it was done correctly! This assumes it was done correctly.

My personal car the dealer had a RA II race car the year before and they unloaded my car brought it to Lebanon valley raced it that day to see what it would do (baseline) came back and in thier service department, swapped short blocks w the RAII GTO that was balanced and blueprinted by jack merkel. This was allowed by NHRA because they were both 2506 blocks. So my car ( presumably can’t rule out that they didn’t test other engines) spent all of its life except one day w the blueprinted RAII short block and RAIV top end
So what is really its engine?

Well the factory installed a RAIV WH, but the dealer installed a RAII WY,.
I say who gives a **** as long as it has a 2506 or better between the frame rails .lol.

It’s when some clown decides to make a RAIV out of a 350 HO or something stupid that it matters .

So I have the RAII short block and the RAIV SR short block from Stephens, I also have the RAV pro stock dual quad engine from Stephens, for my car and IM happy. Would I like to find the original WH sure why not have a forth engine for the car. LMAO .
My point is I think we make too big of a deal out of born with/ numbers matching .and if the money didn’t matter between one versus. The other people wouldn’t be as apt to re-stamp blocks.

( But if I had a BORN WITH car , I’d make a big deal out of it too! ;-) )


That’s why I DON’T give out my VIN though, so iIF I do find someone w my original block I know it’s original and not someone re-stamping blocks to match people looking . This IS a new trend in other makes to be aware of . I’m told there are guys making a nice living out of re stamping blocks to match “looking for my original block” threads .

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

U21
70 GTO 4spd. WT engine
VOE exhaust , Frame Off
VooDoo Green

$48k on the Hammer