#61  
Old 04-22-2022, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
The 421 mod is drilling a steam hole in the deck surface that the head gasket has a provision hole for, but Pontiac never drilled the hole, except for a few select engines. The 421s were in that group, hence the reference to a 421 modification.

By drilling that hole it is said that it will improve the cooling by eliminating a steam pocket area by venting it to the cylinder heads.

I've never done it either, but probably would, if I were to build a fresh engine from this point forward. It wouldn't cost anything to try it, and eliminating a steam pocket can't hurt anything.
Ah, ok, that makes more sense, and that I too have heard of, and actually have done that on builds in the past.

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  #62  
Old 05-03-2022, 07:35 PM
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Mikes Reply:

To solve Vapor lock is to answer the million-dollar question. IMOP

Everything said in this post helps.

Band aids I was told, and I started off with the under-hood Temps. so hot it knocked you back with the radiant heat in your face.

A) check your fuel lines have no holes in it from a screw or something else.

B) I have a 1966 Pontiac Tri-Power Rochester Carbs. and they like 3-3.5 psi. only, low pressure. Install a Fuel Pressure gauge before the Carb. and a Radiator cap Gauge Helps.

C) Block off the Cross over between the Heads and the Intake Manifold, in my case the Fuel heats up under the center Carb. Add air induction, sealed Radiator to support and a 3-hole 180-degree F Thermostat. Use a Temp. actuated Clutch HD fan with Factory Shroud with 19" blades. I also made a phenolic under the Intake and over the Vally pan to keep the excess from under the Carbs to.

D) You could use some or any of the ideas presented in the other posts being offered, won't hurt. I am giving you the most important things to do first, that I would have done, if I knew better at the time, when I was experiencing Vapor lock, hot under hood temps. and overheating issues.

E) Use the Factory Shroud and HD truck type Temp. actuated Clutch Fan, seal the Radiator off. Install a Thermostat with the 3 holes drilled in it for bypass. I use 180 degrees in Florida.

F) Use Rec-90 Fuel with no Alcohol.

G) Make working Air Induction or Ram Air, for cool air sealed to the Pan to Carbs.

H) Make a Sidekick.

I) Use a high-pressure Radiator Cap to increase your boiling point of water and 50/50 Antifreeze in distilled water. Could use Water Wetter.

J) Extra Fan on one side, used as a pusher Fan.

K) Small HD aftermarket Starter with Torque.

L) I added a double-sided heat shield type Phenolic under my Intake manifold. This keeps the Heat from getting under all my Carbs., then I wrapped the bowls on each Carb.

M) I Wrap my Fuel lines and route the Fuel from the Tank, past the Elect. pump, that is lower than the Tank to start, to a bypass hose back to the Tank. I have the sock in the Fuel Tank to screen out Debrees then a filter before the pump Plus the next filter is up near the P.S in the Grill, attached to the Fuel Pressure Gauge.

N) I made an Aluminum Plate with Phenolics over and under to keep the Bowls from heating up, they are installed using the 2 front Bolts of each Carb. and under the Carb. Bowls.

O) Rebuild the Carbs. Offen and keep a good Tune-up on your Vehicle.

p) My 1966 Pontiac has all new AC parts and the AC heats up the Under-hood Temps. by 30 degrees "F". So, if I stop and go into the store, I leave my Hood open to release the Heat soak that develops the moment you turn off the key, that is where the water Wetter works to eliminate Heat soak.

Q) I Run dual HD Batt. with a Sudbury switch in the Trunk. I Run HD cables forward from the Trunk with no joints, if possible or through bolt with copper hardware and solder to complete the joint. I run an extra Fuse panel under the Hood attached to the inner wheel well for all the extra options that were added over the years, each fused on a separate circuit.


R) I have even wrapped the upper Radiator Hose.

S) I use a 4-core copper Radiator and an Oil, Power Steering and Trans. Cooler.

T) I Wrap my Spark Plug Ends to protect them from the Headers as well.

U) I Wrap my Headers in Header Wrap Cloth, and they are Ceramic Coated inside and out.

V) The Inside and under the Carpet is treated for Water Proofing and Heat Insulation Installed Behind the Vinal Interior Panels and over the metal Floor pans plus under the T- Tops in the Roof area. This is to Keep the Heat out and the cool in while using the AC.

W) I created Insulated T-Tops that keep the Sun out and there Insulated as well and covered with the same Ceiling Vinyl that I used when I did the Head-liner. This works well and anyone with T-Tops knows how hot it can get in the summer. Since I had mine Benched, I sealed the Metal to Glass with Black Silicone Sealant. My Rubber is all new throughout the Vehicle and the T-Tops don't leak.

X) The Water Pump gets the Divider Plate inside adjusted to a tight tolerance. See my other Posts for more if you need to. See John Wallace's Site for the way to deal with the inside of the Water Pump in early 1967 Pontiac Motors.

Y) I Run dual Fuel feed lines forward and join them before the Carb. For Extra Fuel volume.

Z) Photos of Mikes under hood, Blue Filter is a By-pass one, Ram Air, Phenolics, Pressure Gauge and Carb. Bowl Wrapps with Phenolics under each Bowl, Fuel line is wrapped in Hot areas, Phenolics between the Intake Manifold and Carb Flange.
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Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-03-2022 at 08:29 PM.
  #63  
Old 05-06-2022, 01:53 PM
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FYI on the " 421" mods.
While the drilling of the center hole in block and head helps, the hottest water still remains in front of block as
Water " shortcuts" from the water pump exiting into block straight up to the crossover where the T stat is.
Plugging the 3 water holes in front of block forces water to rear and middle of block First, which EVENS out the block Temps which means your t stat has more actual control over whole engine Temps. This puts Underhood heat in YOUR control with the stat selection, as long as you have a actual shroud and clutch fan. Cost is less than 20 bucks....

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  #64  
Old 05-06-2022, 06:01 PM
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I've never done any drilling mods of any kind on any Pontiac build and I've never modified any of the water pumps I've used either.

Never had an overheating Pontiac

I just use the stock cooling system parts, clutch fan, shroud, etc... and it just flat works.

Even dad's 571 that makes 724 hp won't get hot, with the stock cooling system parts, stock pulleys etc... There are no fancy water pump tricks or drilled holes. It never gets over 176 degrees with ambient temps at 100 degrees. Even on the hotter days in the desert summer the most I've seen is 185-ish cruising on the highway, and as soon as you take an exit and slow down, it would drop to the 170's pretty quick.

In fact we were just at the track with it Saturday. 96 degrees outside. The RobbMC starter is acting up again so dad decides to just leave it idle in the staging lanes before each run. It's just sitting there for more than 10 minutes and the temp gauge never goes over 176. During the pass it drops to 172, and idling down the return road and in the pits it was already down to 168. We never even bothered to open the hood to cool it down, LOL We could go round robins with this thing and it just doesn't care.

For the OP, I'd go back to the stock fan and shroud setup, verify timing is sufficient, especially at idle, and that vacuum advance is working, and then go from there. If there is still a heating issue then you can start looking at other areas. There is no reason a good working clutch fan and shroud, with a sufficient radiator, won't cool any 400 or 455 out there unless there is something else fundamentally wrong.

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Old 05-06-2022, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
FYI on the " 421" mods.
While the drilling of the center hole in block and head helps, the hottest water still remains in front of block as
Water " shortcuts" from the water pump exiting into block straight up to the crossover where the T stat is.
Plugging the 3 water holes in front of block forces water to rear and middle of block First, which EVENS out the block Temps which means your t stat has more actual control over whole engine Temps. This puts Under hood heat in YOUR control with the stat selection, as long as you have a actual shroud and clutch fan. Cost is less than 20 bucks....
The best advice for me, when I address the Heads. The way I see it, even though I have no vapor lock issues, I would do this on my engine for the long run.

  #66  
Old 05-07-2022, 10:30 AM
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Never had an overheating Pontiac

I must be lucky too, I just read this whole thread and never had an issue either. Stock radiators and stock shrouds, never an electric fan. Even up to over 500hp street engines. I had the original from 69 radiator in my firebird until two years ago and never an issue. I went to a cold case because it started to leak and the local rad shop wanted $550 to core it. I run a 195 stat.

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  #67  
Old 05-07-2022, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I've never done any drilling mods of any kind on any Pontiac build and I've never modified any of the water pumps I've used either.

Never had an overheating Pontiac

I just use the stock cooling system parts, clutch fan, shroud, etc... and it just flat works.

Even dad's 571 that makes 724 hp won't get hot, with the stock cooling system parts, stock pulleys etc... There are no fancy water pump tricks or drilled holes. It never gets over 176 degrees with ambient temps at 100 degrees. Even on the hotter days in the desert summer the most I've seen is 185-ish cruising on the highway, and as soon as you take an exit and slow down, it would drop to the 170's pretty quick.

In fact we were just at the track with it Saturday. 96 degrees outside. The RobbMC starter is acting up again so dad decides to just leave it idle in the staging lanes before each run. It's just sitting there for more than 10 minutes and the temp gauge never goes over 176. During the pass it drops to 172, and idling down the return road and in the pits it was already down to 168. We never even bothered to open the hood to cool it down, LOL We could go round robins with this thing and it just doesn't care.

For the OP, I'd go back to the stock fan and shroud setup, verify timing is sufficient, especially at idle, and that vacuum advance is working, and then go from there. If there is still a heating issue then you can start looking at other areas. There is no reason a good working clutch fan and shroud, with a sufficient radiator, won't cool any 400 or 455 out there unless there is something else fundamentally wrong.

Amen to that also.
Only time in 55 years of ownership occurred when I was too dumb to pay attention to the impellor on an aftermarket water pump!

I cringe every time I see someone start praising the virtues of Flowcrapper this or that.

  #68  
Old 05-07-2022, 01:58 PM
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So, curious.

How many who say they have no overheating issues with stock setups have AC?

How many have driven those AC cars in 100+ degree weather in stop & go bumper to bumper traffic for extended periods of time, like over an hour?

I daily drove my car in those conditions, and, I needed to switch to electric. I had a legitimate reason/need to switch. Still stand by the statement, if you don't have a reason to switch, don't waste your money & effort.


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  #69  
Old 05-07-2022, 02:19 PM
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Me.

  #70  
Old 05-07-2022, 06:23 PM
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I never buy a classic Pontiac with A/C.If I do it will be for a flipper.Tom

  #71  
Old 05-09-2022, 01:43 PM
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I have posted on Fuel a few times, and hope real results, supplant theoretical science.
1 Alcohol Does have more calories than gasoline per volume. More calories, More heat.
2. The mass density of Alcohol, is much LESS than regular unleaded. This, Even though alcohol has a higher octane,
Means you need MORE of it, to do the same work.
3. The lack of fuel economy with alcohol is WELL KNOWN.
Take a look at a window sticker on a new car or 1/2 ton truck. Look at the " range" per tank full. Its usually 30% Less with e85
4. So where's the heat? If you drive 100 miles on e85 at 65 mph, your rpm might be at 2,000 RPM.
Same vehicle, with just 10% alcohol will do the 100 miles at
1800 RPM.
Same vehicle with straight unleaded will do the 100 miles at only 1600 RPM.
All fuels at same octane rating, STP.
While what I wrote above in my example is hypothetical, the EPA ratings say it all.
Conclusion.. More RPM, with a fuel that has low density, but MORE octane, Equals MORE HEAT.
Even though alcohol has more calories , its weak compared to regular fuel.
Due to evaporate properties. And its lower " percolating " temp, means it needs to be kept cooler than regular fuel.
Real world results prove the added heat due to harder work needed to be done to get the job done.

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  #72  
Old 05-09-2022, 07:01 PM
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I agree with your return line and less alcohol in the fuel for fixing vapor issues.
Drilling the one hole in your head, and the coresponding hole in the block ( where the gasket hole is) is a huge first start. I have talked to a guy a few years back that did his while engine was in the car ( the block portion). I believe he used some sort of shrouded vacuum line when drilling the block.Obviously head was done on the bench. It dropped his temp down and the spark plugs proved it. Blocking the front 3 holes just forces the block temps to be even throughout, no shortcuts for the coolest water.
Water tube fix under the valley pan. Having worked on GM V-6's where they put "coolers" in the block area under the valley pan, I can say it may sound good, but presents a huge headache with a failure that may not show up right away. Funny Pontiac HAD a tube in the heads early on in V-8s and they ran too cold and took to long to warm up.
The complete 421 mod plugs and new hole in block and head gets the job done, and If careful I am sure could be done with short block in the car. A tiny bit of metal shaving in the cooling system will do Nothing at all in the block. You should see the size of the chucks of rust that in a normal block.
The water tube fix has merit, and the science is good, but really is a bunch of work and more spots to have a leak. It WILL work if you are inclined to spend the time and effort. I suspect it will need work in the future though..
I like One and done in fixes....and the cold air too... This is why... \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
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  #73  
Old 05-21-2022, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
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that thread was closed for a reason... why are you regurgitating the same thing again here??
TM believes everything that he spews is needed for this board to survive.

IT'S NOT. 99.99% of it is regurgitated drivel.

I purposely don't look at threads where TM has posted. Too irritating. He should really STFU.

I don't normally have an extra thirty minutes to scroll past the 'TM drivel' to get to any info posted by other members that might be useful.

I know what I'd do if I was a moderator - it's TM VACATION TIME.

Just sayin'......

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Old 05-21-2022, 05:12 PM
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Numerous off topic posts and replies to such have been weeded out.

Let’s stay on topic please.

Let’s not reply over and over to our own posts here or in any other threads for that matter.

Try to post in a way that your posts don’t dominate the threads you participate in, it becomes off-putting.

Keeping topics clean and useful is all we ask here.


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Old 05-21-2022, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe's Garage View Post
TM believes everything that he spews is needed for this board to survive.

IT'S NOT. 99.99% of it is regurgitated drivel.

I purposely don't look at threads where TM has posted. Too irritating. He should really STFU.

I don't normally have an extra thirty minutes to scroll past the 'TM drivel' to get to any info posted by other members that might be useful.

I know what I'd do if I was a moderator - it's TM VACATION TIME.

Just sayin'......
Agree that most everything I read is aftermarket hype, that is pretty well known to not apply to most situations of members on this board.

We really don't need a recap of every Pontiac article that was ever published since 1960.

If it pertains to a question that a member asks, but not a whole history lesson on each and every Pontiac article in print for 60 years. Just because it was in print, doesn't make it true, or accurate. You have to consider the source to know if it has merit, or not, BF comes to mind......

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Old 05-22-2022, 02:20 PM
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Me.
Yep. And me.

  #77  
Old 05-23-2022, 08:09 AM
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I don't think my 68 with AC ever overheated, plenty of 90 degree weather, seldom saw 100+ .. but then sitting on blacktop on any sunny 90 degree day is probably going to mean 100+ degree air temps.

I had all stock cooling system.

I think the number one major reason the OEM systems get a bad rap is because people just refuse to recore their original 50 year old radiators because of the expense. The original radiators in like new condition do a tremendous job. Back in the 60's and 70's not every single Pontiac with AC in the Southwest was overheating or there would have been huge blowback from the customers.

People jump through all kinds of hoops with their OEM cooling systems to make them work better .... except restoring the most important component ... the radiator. Fin counts, tubes, materials etc. is NOT the whole story, the OEM radiator was designed to do the job and work specifically with all the other OEM parts. And they will .... unless of course you have an engine running 100 hp more than stock .. then maybe, maybe not.

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Old 05-23-2022, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I don't think my 68 with AC ever overheated, plenty of 90-degree weather, seldom saw 100+ .. but then sitting on blacktop on any sunny 90-degree day is probably going to mean 100+ degree air temps.

I had all stock cooling system.

I think the number one major reason the OEM systems get a bad rap is because people just refuse to Recore their original 50-year-old radiators because of the expense. The original radiators in a similar condition do a tremendous job. Back in the 60's and 70's not every single Pontiac with AC in the Southwest was overheating or there would have been huge blowback from the customers.

People jump through all kinds of hoops with their OEM cooling systems to make them work better .... except restoring the most important component ... the radiator. Fin counts, tubes, materials etc. is NOT the whole story, the OEM radiator was designed to do the job and work specifically with all the other OEM parts. And they will .... unless of course you have an engine running 100 hp more than stock .. then maybe, maybe not.
Mikes Question:

Did the use of leaded fuel keep the system cooler?


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-23-2022 at 02:30 PM.
  #79  
Old 05-23-2022, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I don't think my 68 with AC ever overheated, plenty of 90 degree weather, seldom saw 100+ .. but then sitting on blacktop on any sunny 90 degree day is probably going to mean 100+ degree air temps.

I had all stock cooling system.

I think the number one major reason the OEM systems get a bad rap is because people just refuse to recore their original 50 year old radiators because of the expense. The original radiators in like new condition do a tremendous job. Back in the 60's and 70's not every single Pontiac with AC in the Southwest was overheating or there would have been huge blowback from the customers.

People jump through all kinds of hoops with their OEM cooling systems to make them work better .... except restoring the most important component ... the radiator. Fin counts, tubes, materials etc. is NOT the whole story, the OEM radiator was designed to do the job and work specifically with all the other OEM parts. And they will .... unless of course you have an engine running 100 hp more than stock .. then maybe, maybe not.
That's pretty much spot on. With the big stroker engine in dad's car and over 700hp, the stock system was cooling it just fine. The only upgrade at the time was a 4 core copper stock style replacement radiator and that did the job.
Even today the only change on the cooling system is now a 2 core Cold Case aluminum radiator that was worth about 10-15 degrees in comparison, but it still uses the stock shroud, a clutch fan, stock pulleys, etc.... And it cools just fine.

Our Z that is a daily driver still had it's born with 50 year old radiator and it was still working just fine, it never runs hot. Due to the fact the prices those dated radiators are grabbing now, and the fact that it's age had me concerned as a daily driver, I did pull it about 2 years ago for another Cold Case 2 core aluminum radiator and stashed the original away for a later restoration. Now the car pretty much mimics dad's car and runs about 10 degrees cooler than it used to. Still completely stock cooling system everywhere else.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the stock cooling system if everything else about the car is right.

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Old 05-23-2022, 03:13 PM
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I think another issue about the “overheating “ issue is people’s hypersensitivity nowadays.
Back when were driving these cars, if it didn’t puke coolant it wasn’t hot. 200 degrees isn’t overheating. It may be hotter than you’d like but it is far from overheating.

If a person has a new build, get some miles on it & it will run cooler.

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