#1  
Old 08-09-2022, 12:02 AM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Default Oiling for a 366/303 block with cam-driven oil pump?

Double-dipping tonight.

Anyone have a spare oil by-pass for a block with the cam-driven pump? Ha!

Or recommendations on options?

I think hard lines from the oil filter housing base into an Avaid remote regulator could work; but would appreciate real solutions. 1972-correct ones preferred.

303 tall-deck block going into a '72 Bird. 180 degree headers. Probably would be tight for the "stock" regulator; easy to fit a remote, like the Avaid.

Planning a dry sump tank at the passenger toe board. I have no pictures of what Adams/Baker/Lund did, but assume they put a tank there. 1970 Trans Ams often put a battery there; in '71 trunk-mounted battery was allowed and dry sumps.

Pictures of '71 Penske AMC shows oil tank where the battery was a year before. Lots of detail pictures of Penske; only glamour shots of Tin Indians...

Many thanks for any thoughts you have.

And nice to get back on this project.

Mike

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Old 08-09-2022, 06:48 AM
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Elarson Elarson is offline
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My first thought if you want to be somewhat period correct.....ask Herb Adams. He is scheduled to talk at the T/A Nationals in Dayton, OH.

https://tanationals.org/

Eric

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Old 08-09-2022, 06:41 PM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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I wish I could be there! Not in the stars this year.

I have great pictures of the Gray Ghost and using that as a reference point.

From a crew member of the Adams' team in '72, I have only two interior shots--the dry sump tank is not visible. I also have a picture of the bypass.

And I have the SCCA rules.

I would appreciate any pictures or memories on how it was done.

Or if anyone has:
Bypass
Correct dry sump tank (or pictures)
I have a Moldex oil cooler
I have the two filter set-up that Nell used to slow velocity

Great show to all.

  #4  
Old 08-09-2022, 06:42 PM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Modine, not Moldex...

  #5  
Old 08-09-2022, 10:31 PM
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Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
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I posted this many years ago after talking to Tom Nell when he was alive and Herb Adams
after he sold the Grey Ghost.

""Also, Can somebody tell me more about the Grey Ghost ?"

The Grey Ghost was originally a 1964 Pontiac Tempest which belonged to Herb Adam's wife.

Herb wanted to try his hand at SCCA/ club racing so he and a few of his friends from Pontiac Engineering modified the stock Tempest so that it would be legal for local club racing at Waterford, Michigan (which uses SCCA rules). It wasn't long before a rod let go in the engine that was in the car.

Some of the people involved in the project were Herb, Tom Nell (Pontiac's engine man who designed the Ram Air V), Dudley (Skip) McCully, and a few others.

They revised the rear suspension, changed the front suspension to pieces similar to what HO Racing later offered (Tall Spindle conversion), added a fuel cell, installed a basic legal at the time roll cage, added racing tires and wheels, and last but not least added a SPECIAL
HIDDEN DRY SUMP SYSTEM IN THE ENGINE AND RIGHT FRONT COWL OF THE CAR! The stock pump pulled the oil out of the pan and sent it to the hidden oil tank. From the hidden oil tank the oil went into the block in a special oil adaptor and a second oil pump driven by the camshaft rear journal fed oil back out of the block to the oil filter. From the oil filter the oil flow was just like a normal engine. This system did away with oil slosh during cornering and made the pontiac engine much more durable.

I was fortunate enough to work with a couple of Ford guys who were hired to restore the Grey Ghost for a Pontiac 2004 celebration. They dealt with Herb Adams and Tom Nell primarily but when they needed to assemble the engine they asked me to look over their shoulders. I was able to see the special parts, actually touch them, and see them installed in the car.

The new dry sump stuff today is much better but you have to give the Pontiac guys (Herb, Tom, etc) credit for their efforts.

By the way, the GREY GHOST led the race at Lime Rock for many laps in the rain over the best that Ford and Chebby had to offer (small guys vs factory teams) but eventual engine issues kept them from the winner's circle. There is a great article in Car and Driver (I believe)
about this race.

I believe that Pontiac Engineering and Pontiac in general was so irritated by this refute of the "GM is not in racing" ban that when the same guys campiagned the 73 Pontiac Grand Am in Nascar they were forced out of the corporation.

JMO.

I am very glad that Ford does not have that ban and actively encourages outside racing activities.

Tom V."

The plumbing schematic is described above.

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  #6  
Old 08-11-2022, 10:28 AM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Grey Ghost engine compartment circa 2015. Passenger fender shows the oil fill cap.
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2022, 12:14 PM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Here is the dry sump rule from the '72 GCR.

The 1970 rules required the battery to be visible from the engine compartment. Some teams moved the firewall and mounted the battery in the passenger toe board.

In '71, the battery could once again be mounted in the trunk.

in '71 the Penske AMC team mounted their dry sump tank in the "window" in the firewall at the passenger toe board. There are pictures of this. I assume the battery went to the trunk.

I have not found a picture of where the Junk Yard Firebird mounted the tank. A crew member said it was visible on the passenger floor.

My reading of the rules is that the tank needs to be separated from the driver. Hot oil splashing in a wreck or failure would be a bummer...

Anyway, I would love a picture of the JYF dry sump tank circa '72.








My supposition is that teams did not reinvent the wheel for dry sump tanks in '71-they moved the battery to the trunk and used the battery window for
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Old 02-28-2024, 05:06 PM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Bringing this back to the top as the engine is moving along and oil is a hot topic with Jim Robertson.

Some specifics we need help with:

1. The "stock" pump is the scavenging pump. What did they use to make it live? I assume high volume and not high pressure.

2. If the loop (filters, cooler, tank, high-pressure cam pump) is set up like the Gray Ghost or Junkyard Firebird, what size line? I assume larger so less pressure to blow the filters or cooler.

3. Thoughts on period-correct tank and elevation of tank in relationship to the back of the cam. I assume the main concern is that the tank does not drain into a parked engine but flows freely. Is the tolerance of the rotor gear enough to hold oil up in the tank.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and experience.

Mike

  #9  
Old 02-29-2024, 01:43 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebaronehouston View Post
Grey Ghost engine compartment circa 2015. Passenger fender shows the oil fill cap.
Is that a P4B ?

  #10  
Old 02-29-2024, 10:44 AM
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Mike just thinking about you and your project the other day!

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  #11  
Old 03-02-2024, 02:30 PM
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Two Suggestions:

Dry Sump oil Systems like Roger (in Europe) runs are state of the art ways to keep a Pontiac Engine alive and win races. He uses a Custom "Bob and Frank" scavenge oil pan that mounts the pump on the pan rail.

You are doing a Restoration on the Herb Adams Wife's Tempest oil system.

You will have ONE "scavenge pump" (Factory pump) but with the oil pressure bypass
in that pump shimmed so it never opens. It grabs the oil from the pan and sends it to the hidden oil tank in the dash.

The pressure pump in the Tempest oil system is the G-Rotor driven by the engine camshaft and a special drive set-up.
It pumps the oil thru the oil filters mounted on the firewall and then to the engine "drivers side Factory" oil passage to feed the lifters/bearings, etc. Very unique cheater oil system for the tempest. Herbs Fire Am cars could be plumbed more like a normal oil
system for a Pontiac.

The suggestion was made by Eric to talk to Herb Adams at the Ohio car show. Do it.

Tom V.

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  #12  
Old 03-02-2024, 02:31 PM
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Two Suggestions:

Dry Sump oil Systems like Roger (in Europe) runs are state of the art ways to keep a Pontiac Engine alive and win races. He uses a Custom "Bob and Frank" scavenge oil pan that mounts the pump on the pan rail.

You are doing a Restoration on the Herb Adams Wife's Tempest oil system.

You will have ONE "scavenge pump" (Factory pump) but with the oil pressure bypass in that pump shimmed so it never opens. It grabs the oil from the pan and sends it to the hidden oil tank in the dash.

The pressure pump in the Tempest oil system is the G-Rotor driven by the engine camshaft and a special drive set-up.
It pumps the oil thru the oil filters mounted on the firewall and then to the engine "drivers side Factory" oil passage to feed the lifters/bearings, etc. Very unique cheater oil system for the tempest. Herbs Fire Am cars could be plumbed more like a normal oil system for a Pontiac.

The suggestion was made by Eric to talk to Herb Adams at the Ohio car show. Do it.

Tom V.

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  #13  
Old 03-02-2024, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
Is that a P4B ?
Looks like it

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