[Carousel72TRed]

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Originally Posted by Carousel72TRed

I have been using Lucas Octane boost for a few years and it sounds like from what you are saying I have been wasting my money. I have recently found a gas station that sells 100 octane unleaded gas ($10 a gallon) and I can tell you the car runs much better (69 GTO 10.75 compression) on the 100 octane gas than with premium 91 w/ octane boost. I do use a lead substitute additive and an additive that is supposed to negate the effect of ethanol. Are you saying you have to take the ethanol out of the gas to use the Toluene?

Carousel72TRed

H iFormulabruce,
I see your mixture percentages and I would like to verify that I am reading you right so if you want to attain an octane rating of 98.6% on a 30% mixture, what is the ratio of premium pump gas (91 octane) in gallons (all California gas except E-85 is E-10 I believe) to Toluene in gallons or ounces? I am asking because currently I have 100 octane gas in my GTO. Do you mean 3 gallons of Toluene per 10 gallons of 91 or 92 octane gas for a 30% mixture? The reason I am asking is because if I can get Toluene it may be cheaper for me than the $10 a gallon I am paying for 100 octane pump gas.

Carousel72TRed

[Formulabruce]

I will try to answer a few questions here. First I dealt with the "cans of Boost" was on a race car engine. I had the engine oil tested semi locally and found they did some octane testing
with one of the approved methods. Originally this was to see if Mobil 1 could be filtered and reused in an engine with same performance.
Gasoline now, like oils, have a lot of additives for cleaning and efficiency, and profit.
Toluene is a by product of the gasoline refinement process and is In Gasoline. When Lead was taken out, they started to use other "fillers", some lead substitutes, to cool
the ever increasing temperature of the exhaust valve and seat. Later still MTBE was used. This kept the fuels density in check and burned up completely in an engine.
The Density of the fuel has a lot to do with the amount of energy is can produce in an controlled explosion.
Higher Octane SLOWS down the time to Combust the fuel, However since alcohol evaporates, and ignites at a lower temp, pressure than gasoline, burns hotter, but has little density it can confuse the issue some.
Lets address the racing fuel as an additive. I agree with what they say it can do. It likely has little cleaning agents, and has enough density and flame retarders to boost octane.
To easily prove the point, lets look at Sun Oil Company marketing..

So the race gas blend has Extremely low solubility, and has a stabilized mix of hydrocarbons in a dense solution that burns slower and allows you to get more power out of the burn.
Sun Oil Company ONLY had 2 Fuel tanks at each gas station. In fact, today, its the same at all filling stations for the most part.
They used low grade and middle grade gas blending to make the higher octane fuel and all the "blends" in between.
While that fuel was pretty much Pre fuel injection, The blending Still happens, at Wawa, or Shell, or Mobil.. etc.
There is a company, I believe its "MG" that sells a product that advertises they can make water burn. I was shocked to see a rep do this one day at a Napa store, and so I asked if I could do the "burn" myself with my own water bottle. I was shocked, but not blown away with the alcohol and toluene affect on water.
Toluene, as it stands, in a Gallon container is 114 Octane with the R+M/2 method.
The mixing percentages I listed earlier were done a while back ( I think it was 1999 with gas that had no alcohol, but did have MTBE .
last year I put a quart of Toluene in 20 gallons of 89 octane ( no alcohol fuel from Marina, @$2.75 a gallon) and tested it was 91.2 Ocatne.
I have found that I can buy Toluene at a hardware store, but have to buy a case now. Home chepo used to carry it.
Since I usually run 87 octane in my HD truck, when I heavy tow I add a quart to a tankful ( 26 gal)
Did it work?> One way to tell is that the engine temp runs hotter, even with alcohol making it hotter, still hotter at around 220. Not Ideal, but I have a big separate trans cooler.
I dont hesitate to add to the pump gas if needed, and use it in my 455HO, even with only stock CR.
Mixing Toluene with "E-10" and trying to nail down the octane exactly will be tough unless tested. Even tested its going to be off as the "octane" provided by alcohol is weak.
It cannot hurt a carburated engine.

[form74]

Route 12 at the Mobil border Illinois / Wisconsin
Super unleaded only

Most places in the third northern part of Wisconsin carry super unleaded no ethanol premium only and Everywhere in the UP of Michigan that’s all they run in my snowmobile.

I bring it home for the generator also just in case every time I go

The only gas station I’ve ever seen that sells regular no ethanol gas is an Clintonville Wisconsin On route 45 some small no-name gas station never stop there

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by form74

Route 12 at the Mobil border Illinois / Wisconsin
Super unleaded only

Most places in the third northern part of Wisconsin carry super unleaded no ethanol premium only and Everywhere in the UP of Michigan that’s all they run in my snowmobile.

I bring it home for the generator also just in case every time I go

The only gas station I’ve ever seen that sells regular no ethanol gas is an Clintonville Wisconsin On route 45 some small no-name gas station never stop there

We have some of those places just north of me and up to the Border ( Canada) that sell no alcohol fuel and some stations are not plowed in the winter ( except at the underground tank fill ups)

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

... $2.99 a gal for 87 octane. $2.65 a gal for 87 octane E10...

Are those perhaps untaxed or low-taxed reservation prices?

[johnta1]

I put a quart of Toluene in 20 gallons of 89 octane ( no alcohol fuel from Marina, @$2.75 a gallon) and tested it was 91.2 Ocatne.

Should that be 1 GAL of Toluene to 20 gal of gas?
Or 1 QT Toluene to 1 Gal of gas?



If the vehicle is running hotter after adding the toluene, the fuel mixture is probably too lean. If it has a modern EFI Flex fuel type setup, I would think it should be able to compensate, though.

Would you have checked the specific gravity of the gas before addition and after?

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Should that be 1 GAL of Toluene to 20 gal of gas?
Or 1 QT Toluene to 1 Gal of gas?



If the vehicle is running hotter after adding the toluene, the fuel mixture is probably too lean. If it has a modern EFI Flex fuel type setup, I would think it should be able to compensate, though.

Would you have checked the specific gravity of the gas before addition and after?

Was a gallon. That said specific gravity of modern fuel with toluene gives readings that are really not accurate as there is water suspended in the fuel and this varies by temp. Doing all this at STP can provide info, but its not realistic to end users and its wildly different in different areas of the country. Many places there is more alcohol in the fuel than 10%
Bottom line adding volatile density to fuel will be a true help to performance in a higher cr engine.
Modern engines, UNLESS flex fuel, can't tell. They only know the Oxygen amount and the A/F ratio. My HD was built before E-10 was made, and just that fuel alone makes the engine work harder, and because of that, run Hotter. This affects fuel economy as well.
ALCOHOL and associated water it absorbs is Hard on fuel lines, seals, and metals.

[Carousel72TRed]

Hi Formulabruce,

I really appreciate the information you have provided. I remember those Sunoco pumps back in the day. Could you tell me that as a general rule of thumb 1 quart of Toluene to 10 gallons of 91 octane gas would raise the octane from 91 to 95? And 2 quarts per 10 gallons would raise it from 91 to 99-100? If I find somewhere that still sells Toluene that is probably where I would start at as far as adding.

Carousel72TRed

['ol Pinion head]

CarouselRed, have you cked the cost of Tolene over the last few years?

[Carousel72TRed]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

CarouselRed, have you cked the cost of Tolene over the last few years?

No I haven't. I've never purchased Toluene but I believe Formulabruce stated it was around $7 a gallon. I don't even know if I can get it here in California. As stated in one of my previous posts I found a station that sells 100 octane unleaded pump gas and have been going to that station recently. Unfortunately it costs $10 a gallon and if I can get Toluene depending on what it costs is it worth it to mix or just fill up at the station.

Carousel72TRed

[Formulabruce]

Toluene was/is sold as a paint thinner. I think Home cheapo sells another similar product but its not Toluene.
The price has gone up due to lower demand, but I found the best way to buy is a case of gallon containers.
It was up at 13 a gallon last year.
California? Who really knows....
On the "Blending". Its hard to get an exact octane number as alcohol is a "False positive" when it comes to the Octane we are looking for.
This would require some testing at STP ( for gas , adjusted specs are "calculated" at 60 degrees.)
Alcohol is much less dense than Gasoline and changes state at a lower temp than Gasoline, making even the "Standard Temp and Pressure" questionable.
I will check my contacts and see if I can still get this testing done with E10. They create BTU and measure it as part of the Caloric and octane rating they come up with.
So, yeah, they Burn it , and then do it under pressure.

['ol Pinion head]

There is a threshold where adding toluene does not do much, ESP in heavily enhanced unleaded fuel. My brother ordered a 55 gal drum of toluene in 93(?) or whereabouts when he was mgr of race fuel, chemicals, & lubes for what was large oil company & a multi state Sunoco Race fuels distributor. That toluene was being hand blended into Sunoco Maximal for a local heavy hitters big nitrous ElCamino. We're talking early 405 street insanity! Purple & Red were their big seller race fuels, transport truck back & forth to PA every week. Was fortunate to be there numerous times when the linesvwere jetted from the transport trailer Maximal was shipped to them in a drum, a very seldom deal, this is what pro stock engines run. Can remember speaking w my brother on numerous occasions about their sending out for lab analysis on certain fuels. Also remember adding the Tolulene made the Maximal blend "heavy" / would not pass NHRA fuel ck, but that didn't matter.

Have a feeling that today to buy a gal of freshly mfg Tolulene under $10 a gal, better have a chemical license & be ready to ship in a 55 gal drum = not very handy.

[Carousel72TRed]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Toluene was/is sold as a paint thinner. I think Home cheapo sells another similar product but its not Toluene.
The price has gone up due to lower demand, but I found the best way to buy is a case of gallon containers.
It was up at 13 a gallon last year.
California? Who really knows....
On the "Blending". Its hard to get an exact octane number as alcohol is a "False positive" when it comes to the Octane we are looking for.
This would require some testing at STP ( for gas , adjusted specs are "calculated" at 60 degrees.)
Alcohol is much less dense than Gasoline and changes state at a lower temp than Gasoline, making even the "Standard Temp and Pressure" questionable.
I will check my contacts and see if I can still get this testing done with E10. They create BTU and measure it as part of the Caloric and octane rating they come up with.
So, yeah, they Burn it , and then do it under pressure.

Thank you Formulabruce. The next time I'm in a hardware store I will see if they carry Toluene. If they do I will buy a gallon and will contact you prior to adding to my tank.

Carousel72TRed

[dataway]

Did some quick research ... in general it looks like Toluene is available in gallons from ACE Hardware and Sherwin Williams paint stores ... might vary by location though. $23 a gallon at ACE ... but at about 1/2 gallon per tank that's not bad at all.

[Formulabruce]

You can get a better deal buying a case , not sure if they would charge shipping, which is obviously HAZMAT UPS GROUND.
Backing up to what OPH said; He is 100% Spot on.
Octane lets temp build higher before explosion occurs, causing a more powerful burst.
You can only slow it to a certain point before its "heavy" and doesn't help anything .
Highly doubt that would happen with a small home brew but is more apt to happen with non alcohol fuels as you get more octane. Really 110 is about max usable. If that number was higher, airplanes would be using it.

[Carousel72TRed]

Thank You Dataway,

I will check it out and the next time I go to Ace I get a gallon and first try a quart with 10 gallons of E-10 91 octane unleaded gas. I believe this will raise the octane to approximately 95 from 91. I do not want to put too much in for starters. And I guess the best way to see if a quart is enough is try it out and see if my car knocks and pings when I get on it.

Carousel72TRed

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by Carousel72TRed

Thank You Dataway,

I will check it out and the next time I go to Ace I get a gallon and first try a quart with 10 gallons of E-10 91 octane unleaded gas. I believe this will raise the octane to approximately 95 from 91. I do not want to put too much in for starters. And I guess the best way to see if a quart is enough is try it out and see if my car knocks and pings when I get on it.

Carousel72TRed

Watch your engine temp.......

[gtorich]

Originally Posted by form74

Route 12 at the Mobil border Illinois / Wisconsin
Super unleaded only

Most places in the third northern part of Wisconsin carry super unleaded no ethanol premium only and Everywhere in the UP of Michigan that’s all they run in my snowmobile.

I bring it home for the generator also just in case every time I go

The only gas station I’ve ever seen that sells regular no ethanol gas is an Clintonville Wisconsin On route 45 some small no-name gas station never stop there

Form, we have two stations in oshkosh that sell regular without ethanol, one is Bobs in Oshkosh, cant think of the other one right now............costs a little more.........but most everone has no ethanol in premium in town

Rich

[Carousel72TRed]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Watch your engine temp.......

Sounds like I better get my temp. gauge fixed before I start mixing toluene and gas. I can tell you the 100 octane unleaded pump gas I've been getting lately from the only station in the area that sells it has my car running better than it has in many years.

Carousel72TRed

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I don't even know if I can get it here in California.

I believe that is going to be your biggest hurdle.

fwiw - Walmart shows it in a Case (4 single gallons , Redi-Strip brand ) for $100 .
Maybe they could get it to you .. somehow .... accidentally or whatever.