[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Battery innovations will NEVER reach Gasoline energy density.

Small Nuclear power sources can do it, if allowed.

This is true. Petroleum is a phenomenal fuel source, in terms of energy density.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by JimFB400HO

This is one of the better summaries of the auto production industry's plans for the ramp up of software, electric motors and batteries and the demise of gasoline/diesel engines. The expertise of the engine designers is being lost to retirements.

Originally Posted by Ben M.

This is a problem all across industry. Bean counters and management dazzlers are big on "what we need right now" hiring practices and expect that they can get an expert to come work for their sh$(*y company for peanuts on a contract basis for 3-6 months at a time. As one of those "almost experts" in my field I see the older generation retiring and leaving and management not keeping any of their skills or design notes around.

I just had this conversation this weekend (at the racetrack) with a friend who is still working.

As one of the "old guys" that was pushed out to retire, my perspective is this:

Electric cars are still cars. Just because you have an electric powertrain does not mean you can forget about the "car" parts: tires/wheels, body structure, interior trim, sheetmetal fit and finish, paint, assembly, driveability, etc.

My experience is that the kids that are good at video games can't design their own brackets to hang their electrical stuff on, much less a compete vehicle.

K

[bird72]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My experience is that the kids that are good at video games can't design their own brackets to hang their electrical stuff on, much less a compete vehicle.

K

I know "kids" that are good at video games that have designed and built their own computers from the frame up, because they wanted the fastest and best for gaming.

[JimFB400HO]

A few days ago I noticed the case on my three year old laptop computer distorting. I opened it up and found the lithium-ion batteries were swelling up, apparently a common failure at the end of their life. Don't the passengers sit on the batteries in an electric car? I suppose swelling is better than catching fire.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

My experience is that the kids that are good at video games can't design their own brackets to hang their electrical stuff on, much less a compete vehicle.

Kids are just that though, kids. They don't have the experience and if they don't need to do it, why would they learn? I was terrible at design and building things in my entire 20s, it wasn't until 35ish that I stopped sucking at things.

And you're absolutely correct. Cars are still cars regardless of what they are powered by. Electric, diesel, gas, etc. They all require engineering and technical skill to design, assemble, and maintain. And so many companies think once an engineer or technician gets to 55, it's time to show them the door ASAP.

As far as the electric revolution, I welcome it and think it has great potential. The ICE is my personal favorite, just like horse and buggy is still favored by some folks. But I see the potential in electric cars and hope they continue to improve. Petroleum is great for a dense fuel energy source, but it also has its share of problems. Batteries do as well, it's a constant tradeoff as even a horse and buggy has their share of technology problems and limitations.

If we're really going to old-man-eye-roll technology, let's focus that ridicule where it's deserved: the fusion people who are just "10 years away" from fusion powered cars and have been for 50 years...

[Region Warrior]

Cool tech.
But never keep one past warrenty.

Charging module $3000
3 batteries $2300/$2600/$3900

[padgett]

I'd rather meet Dagny Taggart.

[dataway]

Without a doubt eventually the majority of cars will be electric, how they perform will be up to market demands. For my daily driver I could care less as long as it performs like a ICE vehicle. And ... well if I could charge my car from my own solar panels that would be kind of cool.

The overall rate of change will be more dependent on politics than science, it will be either forced on us, or driven by market forces, the latter will take longer of course.

I think advances will continue to be made in IC engines, and fuel will continue to be available for our lifetimes. As EV use increases the available supply of fossil fuel will last longer and longer, so in that sense they are a good thing for ICE crowd. Also increases in ICE efficiency will further extend the "end date" of fossil fuels as the supply stretches
even farther. As alternative fuels like hydrogen and LPG etc. get more popular ... again the available reserves of oil will last longer again.

Short of some tremendous advance in battery/energy science I think we easily have another 50 years of gasoline burning engines ... again, assuming the decisions are based on science and not politics.

[4zpeed]

Originally Posted by padgett

I'd rather meet Dagny Taggart.

You Dawg... I do admire her.

Originally Posted by dataway

again, assuming the decisions are based on science and not politics.

Fat chance, there is hope.




Frank

[JimFB400HO]

I just read an article claiming there are five states that have banned gaming computers because they use too much electricity. Dell now tells consumers they cannot ship those high-end computers to them in those states.

If a home computer uses too much electricity.............. how can every garage charge a couple vehicles?

[dataway]

Terrible piece of legislation. It will not only effect gaming PC's but any high powered PC used for 3D design work, engineering simulations etc. basically any use that requires lots of computational power. Although there are probably exemptions for "business" uses as opposed to "home" use.
My gaming machine would be no where close to legal there, has about five fans to keep it cool.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by JimFB400HO

I just read an article claiming there are five states that have banned gaming computers because they use too much electricity.

They're trying to legislate around bitcoin miners running farms in houses that use more power than a small city. So of course it's old men who don't understand the problem and pass stupid laws that don't actually solve the problem. Which is why I am all for subsidies into research for electric vehicles but I do NOT want to see them codified into law or ICE codified out of existence. The consumers (us) need to dictate their needs and the market respond accordingly. What works in NYC doesn't necessarily work in LA and doesn't necessarily work in Pecos, Texas and doesn't necessarily work in Minnesota.

[SRR]

Originally Posted by bird72

My brother in AZ has lived solar for three decades and I have optimism and open mind about the role electric will play in our energy future.

States like Az. and Ca. have sunshine for 300 days a year so it is cost effective. I have 17 panels on my roof, my house is 100% electric and my bill will still hit $500. once in a while. I still believe Hybrids for now are a great thing so far. Like any Gov. push it's butt-backwards. The infrastructure should have major work/improvements before convincing the gen. pop. they "need" to go electric.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by bird72

I know "kids" that are good at video games that have designed and built their own computers from the frame up, because they wanted the fastest and best for gaming.

While this is true, and I know a couple too, I am bettering they couldn't even explain any one component.
" just toss another one in" is the modern way.
Understanding is left to the folks off shore as Any Americans with insight are pushed out.
This can hurt folks. Look at the people who think their Pontiac engine needs a " multiple spark discharge " unit and they never go over 4500 rpm. Many of those units are " potted" electronics that Can't cool. Note a few cars broke down in Power tour last few years.
The more dependent on electronics we DONT need, the more it will cost , and. Well a EM pulse could dust the whole electric fleet, while a member drives by in his 67 Catalina with a smile...

[Overkillphil]

Originally Posted by bird72

I know "kids" that are good at video games that have designed and built their own computers from the frame up, because they wanted the fastest and best for gaming.

Yeah but ultimately they're simply ordering standardized component parts and assembling it. (usually stuff that just plugs in one way or another). And the choices/options are usually prescribed online so essentially a box of computer components/parts could be assembled by a trained Chimp.

[Keith Seymore]

I feel like I took us in the ditch a bit by using the word "kids".

My point is independent of any implied age. My point was that, at GM, we made an organizational change to have electrical engineers design and release their own bracketry and hardware to support their electrical components. It was a disaster, so we moved that responsibility back to the corresponding mechanical engineers.

Hence my statement that even electric vehicles still need all the "car" mechanical stuff, and mechanical engineers to do it. Retiring off all the old car guys and experts in vehicle dynamics, body structures, manufacturing and vehicle assembly and backfilling them with EE's will prove to be a huge mistake.

K

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I feel like I took us in the ditch a bit by using the word "kids".

My point is independent of any implied age. My point was that, at GM, we made an organizational change to have electrical engineers design and release their own bracketry and hardware to support their electrical components. It was a disaster, so we moved that responsibility back to the corresponding mechanical engineers.

Hence my statement that even electric vehicles still need all the "car" mechanical stuff, and mechanical engineers to do it. Retiring off all the old car guys and experts in vehicle dynamics, body structures, manufacturing and vehicle assembly and backfilling them with EE's will prove to be a huge mistake.

K

You are so right and who couldn't see that coming? My school is a Tesla training center for the dealer technicians, one of the few in the country. What's the main area of concern on a Tesla? All the damn CAR stuff nobody bothered to engineer correctly or care about while being too blown away with the giant I-pad in the dash I guess. Fit and finish is horrible, water leaks, wind noise, rattles, squeaks, paint peeling. Car stuff.

[ta6point6]

The internal combustion engine has changed little since the 30's/inception. Methanol injection, fuel injection, super/turbo charging is old technology that has just been refined over the years. You think by now someone would come up with a better propulsion system by now. Heck even jet engines date back to around the 30's I know there are plenty of people out there smarter than myself when it comes to engines but before we go patting grandpa/grandma for all they have contributed to modern engines. Lets not forget that great grandpa/grandma were the ones who had all these ideas first. I hope some young whipper snappers are on their ipads thinking of the latest and greatest propulsion system . Is the electric car the solution...........nope just a temporary band-aid. Although I will say I recently got a e-bike and love that thing. It gets 50 miles with pedal assist and 25 miles just using throttle up to 20mph.

[dataway]

Watched a great documentary on Rolls-Royce aircraft division on YouTube. I think it was named something like "The engine that bankrupted Rolls-Royce" or something to that effect.
It was about a new technology jet engine they were working on, and which they sold to major aircraft companies with all kinds of stipulations concerning delivery date, performance and price. Things went downhill fast in 1971 and I think they declared bankruptcy.

They ended up calling back about a dozen late/post WWII engineers, some in their 70's to fix the problems, they stayed on for years improving the engine and I think now it's considered by far the most successful airline jet engine ever built, with reliability and longevity that is a whole different class than the typical jet engine.

Just searched all over for it, can't find it. It focused a lot on the engineers and the problems they solved. If I run across it again I'll post a link.

Way more time and money is being put into actual hydrogen burning engines that I would have thought, not fuel cell cars, ICE that use hydrogen.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by dataway

Watched a great documentary on Rolls-Royce aircraft division on YouTube..........
It was about a new technology jet engine they were working on............They ended up calling back about a dozen late/post WWII engineers, some in their 70's to fix the problems, they stayed on for years improving the engine and I think now it's considered by far the most successful airline jet engine ever built, with reliability and longevity that is a whole different class than the typical jet engine...........

I believe it. That generation would say " not on my watch!", so such folk retire, the engineering effort goes into a ditch, and the sensible engineers are requested.

Me retire? naw. Work remote, for ever, with occasional wisit to do lab work or Customer sit downs.