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Old 07-13-2021, 05:48 PM
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Default WT7 Judge...from Baltimore???

So after have participated in many discussions on this forum related to WT7 cars it was always suggested by others that the known cars were all found to be from the Pontiac assembly plant or Oshawa ONT Canada plant. It was also understood that the option was a very early year one that was quickly discontinued so only those early build cars were candidates for the WT7 option. (then why did they show up on 71 Judges?)

During the recent GTOAA meet in Wisconsin I was able to look over a Polar White Judge from MN with RED BLACK YELLOW stripes and decals and the black spoiler. It was a 4 speed Ram Air IV car. The owner was able to produce the build sheet that proved the WT7 heritage thus defying most of the information I'd heard in the past.

The car was built in February of 1970 at the Baltimore assembly plant and was a nice driver-condition car.

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Old 07-13-2021, 06:04 PM
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AFAIR Black wing on a 70 was a D80 option Sounds like the WT7 included the D80.. Does look better than a white wing (stock).
"D80 Auxiliary Panel & Valance (Spoiler) Rear"

ps yes mine is a documented (PHS) Judge.

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Last edited by padgett; 07-13-2021 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 07-13-2021, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
The owner was able to produce the build sheet that proved the WT7 heritage thus defying most of the information I'd heard in the past.
Wouldn't have taken a pic of it?

1971 would have no Baltimore built Judges.
I know of an Arlington 1970 WT-7 Judge.

Weren't the stripes supposed to be black?



padgett, is your Judge a WT-7 Judge?


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Old 07-13-2021, 09:00 PM
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Mine is an Arlington car but came with a white wing, I just like black better.

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Old 07-14-2021, 09:21 AM
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Default WT7

the car was purchased from an east coast collector. I believe it was sold on ebay with no motor or trans. that east coast collector confirms it was a real WT7 car.

I was able to watch the owner show another show goer the binder with the build sheet. I didn't take a photo of the build sheet as i thought that was a bit too much but i did get a shot of the PHS sheet that was on the dash.

Both show participants commented that they'd never seen a real WT7 car and, for me too, it was my first.

I started this thread after reading LOTS of past threads related to WT7 cars and how they were only built at Pontiac/Oshawa assembly and they were only early build cars. I was researching this early on as my Polar White car was purchased with a black wing and the wrong stripe combo.

After confirming that my car rolled off of the transport in June of 1970 with a white wing and red blue yellow stripes, i understood the car wasn't a real WT7 car...and no build sheet with my car. However, even back in 1974 the original owner thought that painting the wing black was the thing to do. I have a photo of my car from 74 with big ass slicks, bullet mirrors and a black wing.

The original owner told me that "painting the wing black was a popular thing to do since all of the advertising literature showed black winged cars". The original owners dad worked at the Yoder Pontiac dealership in McAllen, TX where the car was ordered and said they had a poster on the wall with a 70 Judge RAIV with a black wing and that's the way they ordered it but it came in (from Arlington) with a white wing and blue stripes.

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Old 07-14-2021, 10:12 AM
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WT-7 thread by BVZ



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Old 07-14-2021, 04:08 PM
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This might help ya

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Old 07-14-2021, 05:21 PM
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Cool!


Does it say WT 7 next to the decal option?



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Old 07-15-2021, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padgett View Post
AFAIR Black wing on a 70 was a D80 option Sounds like the WT7 included the D80.. Does look better than a white wing (stock).
"D80 Auxiliary Panel & Valance (Spoiler) Rear"

ps yes mine is a documented (PHS) Judge.
Are you saying a 1970 Polarwhite Judge has a black wing if it has D80 on the build sheet?
Source on that?

My 1970 Polarwhite Judge is built in Baltimore and has the D80 Air Foil option.
Time to paint the wing black and get black stripes?

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Old 07-15-2021, 08:01 AM
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That's how I read it Kenth... Of course we know after decades of examining original build sheets that all GM vehicles of the late '60's & 70's received a D80 on their build sheet for a factory installed rear spoiler. In the end, his original assertion is just more babble.

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Old 08-01-2021, 10:55 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Thanks for telling us about your discovery Carl.
Maybe someday they will care to share it with us.

I've been real involved with tracking down any and all info and trying to document WT7 cars for a pretty good while.

Have never seen it said that "all" 1970 WT7's were exclusively produced in Pontiac and Oshawa.
It has been stated many times that "all the documented cars - so far - have been PMD or Oshawa" .
Very different meanings with those terminologies.

Same with build date timeframes -
have never seen it stated that it had to be an early car.
It wasn't available until mid-year prodcution in 1970 and continued without interruption as far as we know, until 71 Judge production stopped.

And it still stands that no one has produced a document (buildsheet) for a WT7 from anywhere other than those 2 plants.

Rare4K may have just shown us a partial buildsheet for a 1970 WT7 from Baltimore.
That would be COOL !

There is another Baltimore car rumored - a RamAirIV 4speed.
It was for sale in Charlotte NC several several years ago.
Owner would not communicate or share the Buildsheet - he said he had it in his description, when it was on charlotte craigslist.

Don King inspected the same car at some point later on and said he saw the Buildsheet and it was legit. But he didn't buy the car.
He also didn't care to share a picture of the Bsheet with us.
Wrong engine , converted to Automatic , semi-restored kinda.
Wanted around 50k

Someone later joined PY and claimed to have bought that car , and that they have the Bsheet. And then they vanished

I will not declare any car in any study i have participated in as legit or count it in a Roll Call or Registry until the Documents Are Posted.
Makes no good sense to me and could seem as corrupted integrity.
If they don't want to share or document a rarity - thats fine.

hear-say , they-say , hip-hip-hooray
Someone else can start their own registry and see how well that flies.
You'll have 300 of them before you know it with hear-say they-say

I think we have only documented four or five 1970 WT7 cars so far on PY.
For a long time - there were NONE / ZERO

Nowhere close to enough specimens to declare anything much at all really.
We can only examine the cars that have proved themselves by documentation.

We are working against a claim of 51 cars all supposedly built at Arlington
We do not have an Arlington Car documented yet .
We do have a handful from Oshawa and PMD

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Old 08-02-2021, 12:08 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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i think the partial Bsheet that Rare4k posted reads as

SPEC BLK DECALS
Special Black Decals

But what car does it go to ? lol

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  #13  
Old 08-09-2021, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
Thanks for telling us about your discovery Carl.

Maybe someday they will care to share it with us.



I've been real involved with tracking down any and all info and trying to document WT7 cars for a pretty good while.



Have never seen it said that "all" 1970 WT7's were exclusively produced in Pontiac and Oshawa.

It has been stated many times that "all the documented cars - so far - have been PMD or Oshawa" .

Very different meanings with those terminologies.



Same with build date timeframes -

have never seen it stated that it had to be an early car.

It wasn't available until mid-year prodcution in 1970 and continued without interruption as far as we know, until 71 Judge production stopped.



And it still stands that no one has produced a document (buildsheet) for a WT7 from anywhere other than those 2 plants.



Rare4K may have just shown us a partial buildsheet for a 1970 WT7 from Baltimore.

That would be COOL !



There is another Baltimore car rumored - a RamAirIV 4speed.

It was for sale in Charlotte NC several several years ago.

Owner would not communicate or share the Buildsheet - he said he had it in his description, when it was on charlotte craigslist.



Don King inspected the same car at some point later on and said he saw the Buildsheet and it was legit. But he didn't buy the car.

He also didn't care to share a picture of the Bsheet with us.

Wrong engine , converted to Automatic , semi-restored kinda.

Wanted around 50k



Someone later joined PY and claimed to have bought that car , and that they have the Bsheet. And then they vanished



I will not declare any car in any study i have participated in as legit or count it in a Roll Call or Registry until the Documents Are Posted.

Makes no good sense to me and could seem as corrupted integrity.

If they don't want to share or document a rarity - thats fine.



hear-say , they-say , hip-hip-hooray

Someone else can start their own registry and see how well that flies.

You'll have 300 of them before you know it with hear-say they-say



I think we have only documented four or five 1970 WT7 cars so far on PY.

For a long time - there were NONE / ZERO



Nowhere close to enough specimens to declare anything much at all really.

We can only examine the cars that have proved themselves by documentation.



We are working against a claim of 51 cars all supposedly built at Arlington

We do not have an Arlington Car documented yet .

We do have a handful from Oshawa and PMD
That car was a real ram air IV in The Carolinas, I owned it back in the early 80s that is the build sheet I showed you with the black wing option from Baltimore.

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Old 10-02-2021, 05:05 PM
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I see the white 1970 Ram Air IV Judge CarlBraun talked about in his first post made it on the cover of the September issue of the Legend (along with my buddies Tropical Lime 1971 Judge). The owner was from Minnesota and said he was a member of this forum. I talked at length with him about his car being a Baltimore-built WT7 car. I might be the person CarlBraun alluded to in his second post. Like everyone else, I had heard that all true WT7 cars were Arlington built. The owner produced not one, but two build sheets showing "SPEC BLK DECALS." Over the next couple of days I returned to the white Judge numerous times with my camera hoping to get a photo of those build sheets. But every time I found nobody was around. I only wound up with photos of the black rear spoiler and PHS sheet.
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Old 10-09-2021, 10:36 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Thanks for sharing the additional info on the Baltimore WT7 car .
What other options did it have ?
Where was it sold new ?

Its been a while, but i think we only had 3 1970 cars documented previously,
1 with Black Buckets
1 with Black Bench
1 with Red Buckets ( Ram IV )
all with 4 speed

There is also the 1970 RamAirIV PMD show car that pre-dates WT7 option,
but has been considered to be a test bed for the appearance option. {statement from Jim Wangers}
Black Buckets 4spd

And 3 1971 cars
The 71's are a mix of interior colors and transmissions
White Auto
Blue 4 speed
Saddle 3 speed


Last edited by Baron Von Zeppelin; 10-09-2021 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 10-09-2021, 10:57 AM
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Just a suspicion but while the D-80 on most cars mean "a spoiler" the Judge package (code 332) included a body colored spoiler so "D80" there meant a black spoiler.

Mine came with a white spoiler but since I like black accents on polar white, my white wing is in storage along with the "unsafe in the driveway" 14x6s, and original sticky steering wheel. Grilles, hood scoops, tach, and wing are all black. Also have 71 side mirrors and a red formula steering wheel to match the interior.

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Old 10-09-2021, 11:40 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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On a 70 model
D80 only applied to the Spoiler/AirFoil itself - no dual definitions for D80
All 70 Judges will have D80 on the Bsheet
All Oshawa 70 Judges will have D80 on trim tag/cowl tag .
Regardless of body color .
So how could D80 determine the color of a spoiler with umpteen color choices under 1 code ?

WT7 / 604 is what signifies Black Spoiler and Black Stripes
It was a no-cost appearance option on Polar White cars.
Vast majority of White 70 Judges were not WT7 optioned.

Some Bsheets have a code for Stripe/Decal colors also.
That also aids in documenting.

The hood decals are supposed to be Red on a WT7
fwiw

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Old 10-15-2021, 09:37 PM
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Oops, I misspoke in my previous post saying "Arlington built" when I should have said "Pontiac/Oshawa built." The white Judge at the Nationals was sold new at Powell Motor Co. in Salisbury, Maryland. Its options are:

Ram Air IV Glass S/R
Four-speed Radio P/B
Posi Gauges
G70 X 14 Pwr Stg
Formula wheel Mats
Console Spg Shocks
Disc brakes

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Old 10-15-2021, 10:35 PM
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I can add a little bit more to the WT 7 discussion. I have a buddy who is the second owner of a white 1970 Judge. I first met him the summer of 1993 at a car show. He had owned his Judge for many years but it had only been recently restored. And he had a huge trophy displayed with his car as it had just won 1st place in the Judge class at the GTOAA Nationals a month before. The both of us soon helped start a local chapter of the GTOAA (today its a POCI chapter).

The original owner of my buddies Judge walked into Vetesnik Motors in Richland Center, Wisconsin in 1970 looking for a car. Not liking the red interior of the white Judge on the showroom floor, he decided to order one. He selected a white Judge with a black interior. He also checked off a Ram Air IV engine, four-speed, 4:33 posi, hood tach and almost nothing else. His car was built in March at the Arlington, Texas plant.

That original owner is still alive today and I had the pleasure of talking with him back in 2007. He told me he wanted the fastest Judge he could get. No power nothing. He was beaten only once, by a 1966 Nova with a 350 engine, 3:56 gears and open headers. He also recalled blowing up the original Ram Air IV engine and the dealership installing a service replacement short block.

Interestingly, he was aware of the WT 7 option when he placed his order. At the time of our conversation I didn't ask him about it, but he has shared the story at other times. He said he seriously considered the WT 7 option but ultimately decided against it. He figured that he could save some money by simply painting the rear spoiler himself.

Now, I wonder if this played a factor when other people ordered a white Judge as the WT 7 option was quite rare. Does anybody know of a car where the original owner painted the rear spoiler black? What did the WT 7 option cost?

When the Judge was delivered to the original owner he did indeed paint the rear spoiler black. The first photo is from 1972 and shows the original owners girlfriend (later wife) leaning on the car. (Yes, I originally posted these photos a number of years ago but this time I have enhanced the color.) The American Racing 200 S wheels mounted on the front of the car are now on my 1968 Chevelle Rat Rod.

By the mid-1970s my buddy had bought the Judge. The next photo shows his girlfriend (later wife) leaning on the car. As you can see he kept the rear spoiler black.

By the late 1980s the Judge had been repainted a couple of times but the spoiler remained black. The car had become quite rusty and was used at least one year for deer hunting. Everyone just loves the photo.

In the early 1990s when the Judge was restored the car was brought back to as-built condition, so the spoiler was painted its factory white.

At that 1993 GTOAA Nationals my buddy and Quint Stires lined up their white Judges in front of the host hotel. My buddy told me that the Stires car was a genuine documented WT 7 car. BVZ says he has documented three WT 7 cars. I wonder, is the old Stires Judge is one of them?
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  #20  
Old 10-16-2021, 12:14 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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WT7 was a no-cost option/alternate
That is why we have such a Hard Time documenting many of them.
Nothing will transcribe it on just an Invoice - probably not on a window sticker either.
He didn't save any money - he actually spent more money in buying a can of spray paint or whatever means he used to paint his spoiler Black.

To most folks , i suppose , it probably boiled down to which color Stripes&Decals they wanted on their White car (if they even knew they had an actual "choice")
If they saw the WT7 ads they may have even assumed they would automatically get the Black Stripes & Black Spoiler.
You can't really hurt the look of a White 70 Judge very much no matter which color decals or spoiler you put on it. And it has been proclaimed White was the highest production color for the 1970 cars.

Quint Stires car was long considered a real WT7 car.
In all due respect, he has passed on many years ago.
But there has never been anyone who knew him (and many did) who saw any proof - aka Buildsheet.
So it is sort of "un-documented" in that particular respect.
No disrespect to his person , or his Judge.
It was an Arlington Built White Judge which used to have more meaning in years gone by - than it does anymore.
He may have bought the car from the original owner and had Day 1 pictures - but nobody knows that since his passing.

I am pretty sure i have Buildsheets on 2 White 1970 Arlington Built Judges - and neither of them list WT7.
Arlington Bsheets are virtually identical to Baltimore Bsheets

Have numerous Buildsheets for different White 1970 Judges from all the USA plants that built 1970 Judges (none built in Atlanta or Framingham).
But yet , only 3 documented 1970 WT7's - defacto , have supplied documents.

The RamIV 4spd - Red Interior - WT7 was also a PMD Internal Use Car.
An eventual owner preferred it more as a conventional White Judge - and changed the decals and spoiler back to default colors.
Shet Happens both ways

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