[25stevem]

The condencer is nothing more then a .22uf cap rated at between 450 or 650 volts, the higher the better!
Bosch still offer’s good quality condensers, but I don’t know how much voltage they are rated for and the end of the wire would need its connector changed to a fork.
They are made to screw down and ground to the outside of the dizzy, but there may be room for it inside our size distributors.

For electronic usage you can get .22 caps rated up to 1000 volts and more.
These should last forever!

[1_Wild_Cat]

I don’t remember all the details but I do recall my brother had a Firebird that something was wrong with the tach or signal wire from the coil. I do remember we had a no start situation until the tach was unhooked. (I seem remember the wire was grounding somewhere).

You can use a jumper wire to eliminate the wire from the distributor to the coil. This is a really simple test that will tell you whether that wire is shorting in the distributor housing.

[Bill Hanlon]

I'd go ahead and remove the tach wire from the coil and try starting it again. Leave it off until you get the engine running well.

The engine should run with the condenser disconnected. Maybe not great and it will cause the points to get pitted a lot quicker than with the condenser in place, but good enough to see if the condenser is causing the problem.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by John V.

Brad, I was just talking to my neighbor, he owned a NAPA store since the late '70s until he retired a few years ago and he was saying the same thing. Bad condensers were very rare. But he also said they didn't sell many points/condensers since sometime in the '90s. Prior to then, they mostly sold Echlin parts until guys started to refuse to pay $8 when the cheap parts were $1.50. Eventually, he says guys just opted for the cheap Chinese made stuff but mostly, by that time nobody needed points anymore, everything was electronic. He said eventually Echlin stopped making the good stuff, couldn't compete.

I told him that you can google failed condensers today and the internet is full of stories. It is no longer rare. And given that there aren't very many who actually run points these days, the issue is downright common. Most guys give up and put in a Petronix or the like. Lots of guys that still run points carry spare condensers and are prepared to install them on the side of the road.

The cam was lightly lubed last time so I left it alone when I put the condenser in last year. I'll check it again this time but suspect it is okay. No grease seen on the contacts, they look clean.

My neighbor offered to watch the points while I crank it, maybe get that done tomorrow. That will be a big help. We will check for spark at the plug too while we're at it. I did post that I got the engine to cough a bit while cranking, I figured it had to be getting some spark for it to do that but with the 2nd set of eyes while cranking I'll be able to learn more.

George, I just saw your reply too. I think my last post clarified it but the Tach is connected to the coil -, same terminal that the coil to distributor is connected to.

I've read that Tachs can cause ignition issues but not sure they can cause the condenser to fail. Especially since the ignition is not running thru the Tach, the Tach is simply using the coil - terminal for a signal wire correct?

John, I used Echlin parts in anything I wanted to race, or in my own street cars, very good quality parts back in the day. On daily driver (customer cars) I used mostly Delco parts. I never had any trouble from either brand. Worst thing back then was to tune someone's car, and have it either run poorly, or not start. Either one of those problems will ruin your reputation as someone that can properly tune a car. Some guys didn't care, and as you have eluded to, used cheap bargain basement parts. If you cared about your reputation, it wasn't worth the risk.

Agree to disconnect the tach wire until you get it running properly again. A tach can take a dump with no warning, and either it won't run at all, or it will run poorly. Eliminate as many variables when troubleshooting. I have had tachs that were bad, and just disconnecting them got rid of all the problems.

Correct, the tach is just counting the points opening, and converting it to RPM, that's why there is a mode for different number of cylinders to choose from, but they can still ground the ignition if defective.

[John V.]

Well I'm not sure what to say now. Feeling a bit dumb. Looks like I was way off track.

My neighbor came to help, first thing I did was crank it while he watched the points. They sparked. He agreed that the points looked like new.

We then tried to get the rub block on the high point of the cam to check the gap. Not easy to see with old eyes (both of us) but also because the TriPower seems to obscure the view a lot more than I remember my 4 bbl '64 did when I last played with points back in the '70s. Tried bumping with the starter. Then decided to fetch my 1/2" drive socket and breaker bar. That didn't help a whole lot either since we couldn't get a very good look at the rub block and near impossible for us to judge the maximum point opening by eye. I also pulled a plug figuring it would be easier to turn the crank with the plug out.

First thing I saw was the plug was wet from fuel. My neighbor thought maybe the engine was just flooded.

We could see the points were open but I wasn't really certain what gap they should be, I thought .019"? We weren't really sure if we were up on the cam. I slipped a .016" feeler in. We figured that should be close enough to start if everything else was good.

We weren't certain what it meant that the points sparked as far as the condenser was concerned. Could the points spark if the condenser had failed?

We decided to button it back up and see if it would start. I wiped the no. 4 plug dry and reinstalled it plus the rotor and cap. Neighbor agreed that the plug itself looked like it was burning clean after wiping the wet gas off.

I had planned to use my timing light to see it flash (old school Sears unit I haven't used in decades, not induction type). But decided I would pull another plug instead so I could see the spark directly. So I pulled the no. 3 plug. It wasn't as wet as no. 4 but I wiped it dry and with the plug wire attached, I held it to the head while he cranked.

I saw no spark as it cranked. But just as he was about to stop cranking, the plug sparked strongly and simultaneously the engine fired. Ran just enough for me to sense that it was running raggedy, no surprise since only 7 plugs installed. Had him shut it off.

We decided to reinstall the plug and see if it would start and run.

It fired, blew lots of black smoke for a couple seconds out the tailpipes and then settled into a good fast idle.

As it warmed I pulled it down to idle speed.

So what to make of all this now? Did it fail to start because I flooded it when I tried to start it the first time?

Certainly evidence that it got flooded, wet plugs and black smoke when it did fire. But plugs didn't look wet with fuel when I pulled a few the other day.

Why no spark at the plug when we first started cranking it today? In hindsight, I was holding it with pliers wearing gloves (I really didn't want to be shocked), maybe I just lost contact with the head? Maybe just coincidence that it sparked strongly at the same moment the engine fired?

Biggest question would be how to explain that it wouldn't stay running at idle after a 50 mile drive last time I drove it several months ago.

My neighbor wonders if the coil might be getting hot. It was cool to the touch after about 5-10 minutes at idle. My neighbor had to leave at that point but I kept it running for about 40 minutes. Rev'd it, idled it, repeatedly. No hint of any problem.

After about 40 minutes I checked the coil again, it was getting pretty hot (mounted just behind the RH head surely doesn't help with heat). I shut it off and restarted it a few times. No restart issues, easy starting.

So it is running good at the moment.

I've even started to think that the condenser I replaced last year may not have been the actual culprit.

I'm beginning to wish that I had a vintage Snap-On Model 640 Coil and Condenser Tester. It has a Heat feature.

I'm not positive that the coil is original to the car but I believe it could be. Pretty sure it is at least a very vintage AC Delco coil. Rather than risk a breakdown far from home, I suppose I should be looking for a new one.

Is there a reproduction that is high quality but looks the same as the original?

You can go ahead and kick me while I'm down. I appreciate all the input that's been given here. Still hoping that you guys might have some ideas about what to look at next, whether the coil or something else.

[AG]

Put the balancer at TDC, mark where the rotor is pointing and remove it and set the points. Put a new set of plugs in and start it, look into the carbs to make sure fuel is not dripping in. Your coil should not be getting hot, so something is shorting out somewhere.

[25stevem]

The coil should not really get any hotter then the carb after 40 minutes of running even with it being mounted at the rear of the head. Do you or your neighbor have a thermal gun?

[John V.]

AG, I'll do that.

25stevem, I don't but I have a digital meat thermometer, it might register the temp close enough?

It didn't get too hot to touch. But I have no idea what temp would be "normal".

As I understand it, it is normal for the coil to get pretty hot. And it is normal for the function to diminish with heat even with a good coil. I guess the question is whether it is still able to produce the voltage it needs to while hot.

The Snap-On tester apparently will check the coil "cold" and then you can heat it up and check it warm. The output will show if it is good cold and warm.

Here's a video showing how to use it. He demonstrates an old coil that is marginally good when cold but warms it to about 115 deg F and it isn't so good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X6LPS2zgUw

I don't know if a weak coil will get any hotter than a good coil in actual operation. But the weak coil might cause problems.

If a weak coil does get hotter, any idea what temp a good coil might get to after idling for say 15 or 20 minutes? Unless I know what temp is good or bad, doesn't seem like checking the temp will be meaningful. If there was an easy way to heat up my coil and see if the engine began to stall at idle, that would be useful, but everything I can think to make it really hot would likely result in heat damage to surrounding wires or paint.

I hate to just throw parts at it but might be cheaper than any alternative. Even the used testers aren't real cheap.

[John V.]

Learned a couple things today. First, the coil in the car is NOT original to my '64 so replacing it won't be as "tragic" as if it was original.. It is an old school Delco Remy p/n 1115244, marked 244 on the can. I believe "BR" under the 244 but no idea what that means (Manifest Code?) or if I was reading it correctly as it was difficult to see the letters.

The original '64 V8 points coil was p/n 1115187, marked 187 on the can. The specs for it are in the '64 Shop Manual.

1115187 was superseded as shown in the '66 MPC by 1115134 for Service Replacement.

In turn, 1115134 was superseded by 1115238.

I have no idea what the original application for the 244 would have been or what the specs should be. But as it was superseded by the same coil supersedures as the 187, I expect the specs would have been similar.

Does anybody have specs on the 244 by chance?

The 187 specs were:

Primary resistance: 1.81 - 2.01 ohms at 75 deg F
Secondary resistance: 7200 - 9500 ohms at 75 deg F

Ambient was around 70 when I tested.

My meter zeroed at 0.1 ohms.

Meter showed Primary at 1.7 ohms or 1.6 ohms accounting for the "zero" reading.

Meter showed the Secondary at 10,860 ohms.

So Primary looks low and Secondary looks high, But without actual specs, can I be certain?

I can proceed to checking it after warming it up. But how warm, 120 deg F, 140?

And what would the nos. tell me other than the resistance rose if I have no specs to compare to?

If the Secondary resistance is high, that would explain the can getting pretty warm while it idled the other day. And once hot, could explain the idle issue I've experienced after a longish drive if the coil resistance is spiking.

One last thing. Everything I have read says these oil filled coils should be installed vertically. In the car, mine was leaned over maybe 20 degrees. When I went to hook up the alligator clip to the positive terminal (previously I just used the straight probes), the coil bracket moved. I realized that it was loose. As I turned the coil to the vertical, it seemed to get tight,

I'm wondering if it got loose and then tipped over/spun to a non-vertical position and as a result perhaps it got hotter as more of it was behind the head and obscured by the head, out of any cooling air flow.

I think I'd have to loosen the bracket clamp and pull the coil out in order to access the fastener that secures the bracket to the firewall. No doubt I'll do that whether the tipped over coil has anything to do with anything or not.

But if anybody has specs on the 244 coil or other thoughts about my resistance readings, fire away please.

[Kenth]

Here are the specs for the 1115244 ignition coil (and others):

[25stevem]

The oil in these coils is used as both a coolant and a aided insulator between the primary and secondary windings.
It’s possible that the tilt of the coil left some windings to over heat and short the primary to the secondary which would cause the coil to not work at all, also such unintended action could make for a few shorted windings on either the primary or the secondary side.

This would change what is called the turns ratio.
Such a issue taking place on either winding would make for reduced spark output, maybe only a little, maybe a lot!

Having a coil that test good in the car but with a different set of resistance’s ( as long as it’s not a 6 volt coil ) then what is called for will not stop the motor from running and at least getting up to 3000 rpm under load.

In general if a coil has a secondary resistance that
is more to the high end of its spec range it will output a hotter spark to the plugs.
I hope some of this helps!

[hurryinhoosier62]

John, the temp meters sold at Harbor Freight are fairly accurate and have a much higher temp range than a digital meat thermometer. A coil mounted on the head? WHY? I always mounted mine on the firewall. I remember seeing OE Pontiac coils mounted on the right side of the intake, but my dad and my uncle would move them to the firewall. Here’s hoping you find the root cause of this problem.

[b-man]

1964 V8 coils all mounted on the back of the passenger side head from the factory.

[John V.]

b-man, your post reminded me of the pic in the 1964 Fremont Plant promotional booklet that shows a '64 Pontiac V8 being dropped in the chassis of an A body being assembled. It dawned on me that the coil was shown attached to the rear of the RH head.

I had thought my coil was attached to the firewall so I went out to take a look. Turns out it is bolted to the back of the RH cyl head as it should be.

The pic also shows that the coil isn't actually installed vertically. Looks more like it is canted at the same angle as the block deck surface.

In any event, I'm sure it wasn't helping that mine was loose. It won't require pulling the coil out of the clamp to access the attaching bolt either. And also explains why it felt like it got tighter when I turned the coil CCW. I had wondered how that could happen if the attaching screw was into the firewall.

So the "tilt" might not have had anything to do with my issue. Although I am still thinking the coil will be replaced as the likely culprit.

Kenth, thanks for posting those specs.

Only problem, the Secondary Resistance is shown as 3000 - 20,000 ohms for all of them. That certainly doesn't agree with the '64 Shop Manual for the 1115187 coil. And doesn't indicate the temperature either. The Primary Resistance is at least close to what the Shop Manual shows.

I have no idea what the "Coil Set Number" refers to, do you?

25stevem, if I follow you, I'm thinking the coil is breaking down from age either on the primary or secondary side or both. Not to where it is shorting the primary to the secondary (total failure right?) but enough so that I'm getting misfiring once the coil heats up and resistance increases significantly in one or both windings. The misfiring gets bad enough that the engine can't idle and stalls but coil output is sufficient enough so that it will restart easily (with 12V to the coil right?) but then all but impossible to keep it rev'd enough to avoid constant stalling at that point. Letting the engine drop back to idle simply results in another stall.

Steve, even before all this, I had given thought to picking up the Harbor Freight IR Thermometer. So I probably will get one so that I can know the coil canister temp. Will be useful to do a temp comparo assuming I go ahead and replace the coil. Once I can get the GTO back on the road, my plan will be to let it act up once more and then change out the coil in a parking lot. I'll then proceed to drive the thing until I'm satisfied that the new coil has cured the problem and stays cooler than the current coil under same conditions. The IR thermometer will help me document that.

I can't think of any other reasonably economical way to diagnose the issue.

[Kenth]

John V, the "Coil Set Number" is a procedure using the Sun coil tester.