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Old 07-01-2020, 07:52 PM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Default Question on building a 461 stroker

Hi. I am about to start a build with a 400 block to pit in a 4 speed car. The car is a 79 trans am so I would lime the factory shaker to sit properly also. I was thinking since I am buying all new parts that a 461 stroke kit would be a option. I want to run the original 6x 4 heads on 93 octane. Does anyone have a proven combination that makes good power while using the 6x 4's ? I was going to use a hydraulic cam but am open to a roller setup. Any advise is appreciated. Thanks

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Old 07-01-2020, 07:57 PM
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My son has a 79 TA with 9.8:1 car that runs high 11’s with Radial TA’s in good air. Runs low 12’s in Norwalk in the summer heat. Has a Butler/Comp hyd roller. Stock home ported intake Ram Air manifolds. Nothing fancy.


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Old 07-01-2020, 08:24 PM
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A stroker kit along with a Stump Puller cam from SD performance makes a great street combo in that 9.5 or 9.8'ish build. I have used that cam in a couple of 461s with iron and KRE heads with great results, and NO worry of any flat taper cam issues!

The cast stroker crank is fine for 500hp or less, but you may sleep better at night if spending a little more for a forged crank. Plus, the forged crank would be preferred if you added more power down the road with aluminum heads, etc.

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Old 07-02-2020, 07:26 AM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeklm View Post
A stroker kit along with a Stump Puller cam from SD performance makes a great street combo in that 9.5 or 9.8'ish build. I have used that cam in a couple of 461s with iron and KRE heads with great results, and NO worry of any flat taper cam issues!

The cast stroker crank is fine for 500hp or less, but you may sleep better at night if spending a little more for a forged crank. Plus, the forged crank would be preferred if you added more power down the road with aluminum heads, etc.

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I was looking at their stump puller cam. Did your iron heads have any port work? What did you use for intake and carb? Thanks

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Old 07-02-2020, 07:30 AM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave M View Post
My son has a 79 TA with 9.8:1 car that runs high 11’s with Radial TA’s in good air. Runs low 12’s in Norwalk in the summer heat. Has a Butler/Comp hyd roller. Stock home ported intake Ram Air manifolds. Nothing fancy.


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That sounds very comparable to what I am looking for. Was there any head work done? Thanks

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Old 07-02-2020, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho4554spd View Post
That sounds very comparable to what I am looking for. Was there any head work done? Thanks

Yes. It originally had 670 heads that were not ported. The pistons are dished to lower compression. Then switched to ported 62 heads. Went from a mid 12 to a high 11 with only that change. Should be able to get around the same CR with flattops and 6x-4. We race in 2 stock appearing classes. That’s why we have iron heads and intake, a Qjet and no headers.


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Old 07-02-2020, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poncho4554spd View Post
I was looking at their stump puller cam. Did your iron heads have any port work? What did you use for intake and carb? Thanks
I did a home port job on a set of 4x heads that had larger valves installed (similar to the 6x) after watching a couple videos, etc., My machinist flowed a couple of ports, which were right at 240 cfm. If I recall, a typical factory port flows around 214?? I could be wrong on that. Actually, I think my 214 number came from the same machinist testing a stock 5C head that just had some light cleanup or gasket matching.

I used a qjet and factory cast iron intake. I had the Ram Air style iron exhaust manifolds in the KRE head engine, and headers on the 4x head engine. I know that sounds a little backwards, but was just how things ended up. It goes without saying that the KRE head engine made more power with iron manifolds than the 4x head engine did with headers....

I can appreciate the use of iron heads for people wanting a completely stock look or class racing, or if the budget is already squeezed. But in my personal weekend Warrior experience, the best investments I have made in my small handful of pontiac builds are a roller cam and Aluminum heads!! The packages that SD recommends simply work well together and take the guess work out of it for us novices!! If you can swing the expense and want it done right the first time without any "moderately" successful builds, go with a tried and proven package by SD, Butler or a reputable builder on this forum.



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68 Firebird-- Street/Strip - 400/461 Eagle Forged Bottom End & Ross Flat top pistons. KRE 325 CFM D port, Ultradyne 263/271 @.050, .4267 lift. Crower Solid roller lifters and 1.65 stainless rockers. Quickfuel 1000 on Torker2 intake and 2" open spacer. Hedman 1.75" headers. TH400 w/brake. Ford 9" w/3.80 gears & 28x9 Hoosier pro bracket drag radial. Best ET: 1.35 60ft, 6.29 @ 107.20 mph, 9.99 @132.33 mph. 3,300 race weight
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:32 PM
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SD's cam/head packages work well. Just determine your budget and "look". You could easily build a 11.9/12.0 500hp stock appearing engine using cast heads and SD's "stump puller" cam and modified cast intake.

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Old 07-03-2020, 06:32 PM
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I've built around 10 engines using that combination over the last few years. Works out well with commonly available parts. I'd use the Icon forged premium pistons. There are two choices for the 4.25" stroke crank to consider. One has 4.3 cc valve reliefs and the other is 10.6 CC's. If your 6x-4 heads come in around 92 cc combustion chambers, the 4.3 cc piston will give you ~9.9 CR. The 10.6 CC piston will wind up at ~9.4. I've used both without any pinging with the right deck height and camshaft choice. Heads are fair flow wise but aren't going to make a lot of power without porting. Just depends on how much horsepower you're shooting for. I use Eagle or Scat H beam rods on street engines. Camshaft would depend on gearing, trans, intended use, etc.. but go with at least 230 - 236 intake duration @.050. To be able to use your factory shaker I would go with either a Torker II, Pro Comp single plane, or Holley Street Dominator intake. Lastly, consider a Canton or equivalent extra capacity oil pan for a little extra insurance oiling wise. Hope that helps! Let me know if you have any questions.

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Old 07-03-2020, 10:38 PM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Thanks everyone for the advise. I figured there would be some good advise on here from you guys that have built proven combinations. Gonna be obtaining all the parts shortly.

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Old 07-04-2020, 12:02 PM
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455firebird1969 455firebird1969 is offline
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Get a copy of Jim Hands book for porting the heads, and building the engine as well, there is a lot of good info in that book. I did a set of #62 heads for a race gas 463 years ago following his book for guidance. With a Comp Cams XE284H hydraulic flat tappet cam that engine ran 11 teens in good air, and I eventually got high 10’s out of the heads after swapping in a Crower custom grind solid lifter cam. Later I swapped to E heads. The E heads gave me another five tenths. My Firebird weighed #3500 back then.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Per.../dp/1884089674

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1.38 60' 6.32 @ 108 MPH at Northeast Dragway NC 5/23/15 (9th pass on new engine)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ePCu2v...ature=youtu.be

1.37 60' 6.26 @ 109 half track, 9.86 @ 136 1/4 mile, #3350 11/26/16 at Richmond Dragway (125th pass on new engine)
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Old 07-05-2020, 06:25 PM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 455firebird1969 View Post
Get a copy of Jim Hands book for porting the heads, and building the engine as well, there is a lot of good info in that book. I did a set of #62 heads for a race gas 463 years ago following his book for guidance. With a Comp Cams XE284H hydraulic flat tappet cam that engine ran 11 teens in good air, and I eventually got high 10’s out of the heads after swapping in a Crower custom grind solid lifter cam. Later I swapped to E heads. The E heads gave me another five tenths. My Firebird weighed #3500 back then.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Per.../dp/1884089674
I do have that book and was thinking about doing the heads at home. There is indeed very good info in there. What compression was your engine?

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Old 07-06-2020, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by poncho4554spd View Post
I do have that book and was thinking about doing the heads at home. There is indeed very good info in there. What compression was your engine?
I don’t remember the exact compression ratio, It was high enough to need race gas. Whatever you get when you put a #62 (72cc) head on a 455 with flattop pistons. It was a good running engine, many people said the cam was junk, but it worked for me. If you don’t mind getting dirty, Jim shows you exactly what to do. I applied his process to the inline six motor below, It’s just another low RPM high torque engine.

I just built a 4.0 based inline six stroker motor, (now it’s a 4.7) for my CJ-7. I spent about 20 hours working the head on that motor, it has LS1 valves, beehive springs, and more cam, I’m hoping to make about 250-275 HP with about 325-350 LB/FT of torque, right off idle. Power comparable to a stock SBC. Either way it should be better than the 110 HP the 258 (4.2) inline six was rated at when my Jeep was new.

It’s going in as we speak.

When you port your own heads, if I remember correctly the 6X heads have bumps cast into the exhaust ports, and it’s something you can remove, just be careful not to dwell in one spot with the grinder, you can break through. You have to take your time...be methodical with every step to take when porting them. Then polish the short turn, I have an easy method if you go this route. Send me a PM when ready.









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1969 Firebird, Tx3-455/468 machined by CVMS
E-heads by Dave Wilcox/Comp Cams 300B-6 flat solid
850DP on E-85 by Eric Niefert/T2 1" plastic spacer
T-400/PTC 4000/390's/30x9 Hoosier radial slicks,#3400
1.38 60' 6.32 @ 108 MPH at Northeast Dragway NC 5/23/15 (9th pass on new engine)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ePCu2v...ature=youtu.be

1.37 60' 6.26 @ 109 half track, 9.86 @ 136 1/4 mile, #3350 11/26/16 at Richmond Dragway (125th pass on new engine)
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:36 PM
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Mike Davis Mike Davis is offline
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[QUOTE=455firebird1969;6158442]

(I just built a 4.0 based inline six stroker motor, (now it’s a 4.7) for my CJ-7. I spent about 20 hours working the head on that motor, it has LS1 valves, beehive springs, and more cam, I’m hoping to make about 250-275 HP with about 325-350 LB/FT of torque, right off idle. Power comparable to a stock SBC. Either way it should be better than the 110 HP the 258 (4.2) inline six was rated at when my Jeep was new.)

I built a 4.7 for a Wrangler I had, 258 crank, 4.0 block. Ended up using the Edelbrock head, Comp Cams has some good profiles for that set up. Your HP goals should be easy to get. With the ported e head mine made 300HP. With 4.33 gears it was fun.

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Old 07-06-2020, 04:54 PM
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Our track used to have a Slant 6 club that would show up and race in a special class for them. They set the national record at our sea level track. This guy had I believe a Valiant Station wagon and a badd @$$ engine with multiple carbs. Even had a Lenco. Ran in the 11s. Very unique sound to them.

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Old 07-07-2020, 07:52 AM
poncho4554spd poncho4554spd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 455firebird1969 View Post
I don’t remember the exact compression ratio, It was high enough to need race gas. Whatever you get when you put a #62 (72cc) head on a 455 with flattop pistons. It was a good running engine, many people said the cam was junk, but it worked for me. If you don’t mind getting dirty, Jim shows you exactly what to do. I applied his process to the inline six motor below, It’s just another low RPM high torque engine.

I just built a 4.0 based inline six stroker motor, (now it’s a 4.7) for my CJ-7. I spent about 20 hours working the head on that motor, it has LS1 valves, beehive springs, and more cam, I’m hoping to make about 250-275 HP with about 325-350 LB/FT of torque, right off idle. Power comparable to a stock SBC. Either way it should be better than the 110 HP the 258 (4.2) inline six was rated at when my Jeep was new.

It’s going in as we speak.

When you port your own heads, if I remember correctly the 6X heads have bumps cast into the exhaust ports, and it’s something you can remove, just be careful not to dwell in one spot with the grinder, you can break through. You have to take your time...be methodical with every step to take when porting them. Then polish the short turn, I have an easy method if you go this route. Send me a PM when ready.









Will do. Thanks again for the advise.

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Old 07-07-2020, 08:25 AM
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What color blue is that ? Cool shade of blue..

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Old 07-07-2020, 11:05 AM
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455firebird1969, nice work on that head!
Looks like a cool project.



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Old 07-08-2020, 11:48 AM
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I kinda got a little side tracked in 2018, and stepped away from Drag Racing my Pontiac. My race car hasn’t left the trailer, nor the engine run since, but I am slowly finding my way back into racing my Pontiac. I bought a 1985 CJ-7 In 2019 because I had bought a new one in 1986, and decided I wanted another one. They ride like a little tank, are very basic 4x4 machines, but they are fun to drive. That’s when I decided to build the little 4.7 stroker motor for it. Like Mike said, It’s easy to build a stroker. Mopar didn’t change the inline six much when they bought the AMC Jeep line in 1987, They increased the bore, decreased the stroke, added MPFI and continued manufacturing them for about 15 years, so there are tons of them to be found. If you put a 258 crank in a .060 over 4.0, you end up with a 4.7, like mine.

That color is AMC blue, almost as pretty as Pontiac blue.

Thanks John, I learn a little more each time I port heads, or “a head” in this case.

Sorry for sidetracking your thread, Poncho4554spd, But you can achieve the same results with a little effort, and Jim’s book. If you need any help PM me. You should be able to build a 500+ HP 461 with 6X heads, with tons of torque.

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1969 Firebird, Tx3-455/468 machined by CVMS
E-heads by Dave Wilcox/Comp Cams 300B-6 flat solid
850DP on E-85 by Eric Niefert/T2 1" plastic spacer
T-400/PTC 4000/390's/30x9 Hoosier radial slicks,#3400
1.38 60' 6.32 @ 108 MPH at Northeast Dragway NC 5/23/15 (9th pass on new engine)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ePCu2v...ature=youtu.be

1.37 60' 6.26 @ 109 half track, 9.86 @ 136 1/4 mile, #3350 11/26/16 at Richmond Dragway (125th pass on new engine)
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:39 PM
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I had a 2 door 63 Wagoneer with a straight six. It was a SOHC engine with a cross flow head, cast iron header, aluminum intake with a Holley 2 barrel. It got almost 20mpg. The engine was made by a industrial company, Continental maybe ?. Had a gear drive transfer case too.
Fantastic 4x4. About the only time you could get it stuck was high centering it. It would climb a hill like crazy good with all that weight on the rear tires.
I had water coming over the hood many times fording rivers. Got it stuck once in a river, stopped with water in the floorboards. Had my wife and year old niece with us.
Walked both to shore, baby in carrier. Looked at my rig sitting out in the water, went back to it, started it up, turned downriver hoping it would move, it did, water came over the hood for a second when it hit a little hole but I turned it back around and drove to shore.
Great, simple 4x4. Bought it for 500$, garaged kept by a little old man who bought it new. 52,000 miles. Never have seen a 63 2 door Williy's like it, and I look. Wish I still had it.

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