[Cammer-6]

T/a had 1 inch sway bar
no others had this

[boater bill]

weird looking spiral shocks

Those are standard 1960's issue GM shocks. If the original purchaser specified the Koni's which were available on the Firebird, they would be red.

The '69 TA 1" bar has made me notice several clones that were touted as real.

[John V.]

Glenn, MPC would certainly help, although have to be careful with them. Lots of errors and even more p/n supersedures so not always the best source. Don't know if a better reference exists for the '69 'bird such as factory assembly drawings.

1969T/A, you didn't answer my questions about your purpose.

Or if you are describing your Lordstown built 350 convertible.

If you are, the Disc Brakes would seem to have been swapped in. That car was built with Power Front Drum Brakes, Sales Code 502.

The Power Front Disc Brakes were Sales Code 511.

Power Front Drums were not allowed for any 400 'bird.

For the 350 'bird, you could have the Power Front Drums or the more expensive Power Front Discs, but obviously not both.

It is unlikely that there was an unaccounted for build error, so if the Invoice record shows Power Front Drums, it has to be assumed that the Disc Brakes are not original. A sharp expert might be able to detect the swap from p/n, cast date, and other evidence on certain parts.

Somebody else can say whether a 350 Convert should have multi-leaf rear springs.

Reread what I said about the content of the Ride & Handling option.

There conceivably would be no visual difference between the components supplied for the standard build and what would have been supplied when the R & H option was ordered. Since your car did not include that option, either your car has the standard components for the build (which would have depended on engine, options, even body style) or somebody swapped components sometime during the past 40 years.

As an academic exercise, it would be interesting to know if a handful of cars were specially built at one of the 'bird factories, and to see what notations and pricing as a consequence appear on the Invoices for those cars. One of the more interesting '64 GTOs I have ever documented was one built with a standard Tempest hood. Not real exciting, but interesting. The same would be true of a 350 'bird that may have been built with a fake scoop 400 hood (sans 400 emblems). Could such a car been built? Sure. But not particularly exciting.

If the cars were modified after production, even if Pontiac service parts were used, that becomes decidedly less interesting. A lot of cars were "customized" in some way by their original owners, even if it was only to install $4.99 Sears Heavy Duty Shocks when the original Delco shocks wore out after 2 years (the Delco Shocks reportedly cost GM less than $1 to make, how good do you think they were?).

If you are hoping that your car could turn out to be one of these specially built 'birds, you have to know that you'll be met with a lot of skepticism. First, nothing you've presented suggests that the cars were all that special. And second, nothing about your car or its documentation suggests a special build. The relatively rare TA was not well received when new. It is fairly valuable today partly because it actually does have some unique components and desirable performance features which are rare on non-TAs.

Even if a handful of 350 'birds could be found that were factory built with a 400 hood and Ride & Handling springs and shocks, they wouldn't generate a lot of enthusiasm in the hobby, consequently would be valued like any other 350 'bird, ie., certainly not in the same realm as the TAs. Nothing has been presented which suggests that a handful of TAs were built to all TA specs (including the unique body components) except that they featured a 350 engine. If such a TA had been built, it might approach the value of a "real" TA. Although the engine would be a big negative, sorta like the '67-'69 2 bbl 400 GTOs. The engine is so much a part of the TA (and GTO) image that an emasculated version of the standard engine leaves a lot to be desired for most hobbyists even if the rest of the car had the look and other componetry of the "real" thing. JMO.

I'm still curious to know what is your purpose for delving into this topic.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by John V.

I'm still curious to know what is your purpose for delving into this topic.

Research. It's pretty simple.

[1969T/A]

I talked to Jim Wangers on the phone today.
I asked him it he ever heard of a "promo 350 engined trans am"
He told me that there were none that he was aware of
I then asked him if he knew of any "PFST" with 350's
He told me that the "PFST" had nothing to do with the 1969 trans am's.
During our conversation.
I asked him about the "I Dream Of Jeanie Car"
He told me that it was a "1969 trans am" that was given to the show for advertising
But it was not to be "sold" and he was not sure how many were made
for the show. He also told me they do not know what happened to the car or cars.
And there is no way of tracking it. Because there are no records on file.

Also at this time I would like to say.
I'm not saying my green D80 convertible tagged car is that car.
I just thought. I would share the info with the group.

[rtanner]

hey good job 69\ta, thanks for sharing that,

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

I talked to Jim Wangers on the phone today.
I asked him it he ever heard of a "promo 350 engined trans am"
He told me that there were none that he was aware of
I then asked him if he knew of any "PFST" with 350's
He told me that the "PFST" had nothing to do with the 1969 trans am's.
During our conversation.
I asked him about the "I Dream Of Jeanie Car"
He told me that it was a "1969 trans am" that was given to the show for advertising
But it was not to be "sold" and he was not sure how many were made
for the show. He also told me they do not know what happened to the car or cars.
And there is no way of tracking it. Because there are no records on file.

Also at this time I would like to say.
I'm not saying my green D80 convertible tagged car is that car.
I just thought. I would share the info with the group.

if it were mine, i would build a clone of the i dream of jeannie car. perfect candidate with the d80 tag. i havent seen that episode in several years and cant remember if it was ever shown running or not??? anyone know??? i do remember an episode of a convertible that i think had white interior and it rumbled like a ram air 4 car.

[einstein]

Somebody else can say whether a 350 Convert should have multi-leaf rear springs.

John, there were NO 69 Firebirds with Mono-Plate rear springs.

And I agree there were issues with the master Parts Catalog, that's why I used to often compare my July 1969 copy with others that were earlier or later.

Oddly, mine have all the 69 Trans Am and Judge part numbers (many are only 6 digits)but without prices - just a blank in the price column.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

if it were mine, i would build a clone of the i dream of jeannie car. perfect candidate with the d80 tag. i havent seen that episode in several years and cant remember if it was ever shown running or not??? anyone know??? i do remember an episode of a convertible that i think had white interior and it rumbled like a ram air 4 car.

Gary,

There is a show where Major Healy pulls the green vert in behind Tony's 67 GTO in the driveway.

Personally I would do the same with it - the new steel hood is out now too!

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

I asked him about the "I Dream Of Jeanie Car"
He told me that it was a "1969 trans am" that was given to the show for advertising

So Jim says the Jeanie car was a TA? Was it one of the 8 built or was it in addition to the 8 and not on the list?

I wouldn't necessarily question the man's memory, but I would bet it was a 350 vert with a wing, a hood and special paint.

[muscle_collector]

an interesting thought, who was in charge of giving hollywood the cars????

[MikeNoun]

The "I Dream Of Jeannie" car was not a 1969 Trans Am. If you look at the March 2008 issue of HPP, there is a lengthy article on the 1968 "Superteen Firebirds". These were special TV giveaway cars (3 of them) created by George Barris for a popular ABC show called "Sounds Of 68" (it was like American Idol back then). The winners would receive a "Superteen Firebird", valued at over $12,000 back in 1968.

George Barris used a 3-piece rear spoiler (69 Trans Am style), a dual scooped hood (similar to the 69 Trans Am, but different shape), and used side scoop fender extractors, but mounted in FRONT of the rear wheelwell, and the scoops faced FORWARD (very similar to the way the brake scoops were mounted on the 1968 PFST car). These giveaway cars were marketed heavily, and were extremely popular. In fact, they made a plastic 1/24 scale model kit of the Superteen Firebird. George Barris stated that the 3 giveaway cars were so popular, he decided to market the components, and allow dealers from across the country to order the body parts and install them on customers cars.

As you know, Barris did many of the Hollywood/TV cars. Looking at the green "I Dream Of Jeannie" car that Roger Healy drove, it's obvious this car had some of the "Superteen Firebird" parts installed. Roger's car had the George Barris hood, side scoop extractors (mounted in front of the rear wheelwell, facing forward), and a 3-piece rear spoiler. Roger Healy's 1969 Firebird was not a Superteen Firebird, but it appears to have a few of the George Barris components installed.

I wouldn't question what Jim Wangers says, but his comment that the "I Dream Of Jeannie" car was a 1969 Trans Am doesn't make sense. If that car WAS a Trans Am, then they removed the rear wing and replaced it with a George Barris 3-piece unit, they removed the Trans Am side extractors and mounted them backwards on the rear quarter panels, removed the original steel hood and installed a fiberglass hood (it has hood pins), then painted the car green. Not exactly a great promotional tool for the new 1969 Trans Am! I think Jim may be confusing the "I Dream Of Jeannie" car with another car.

Hope this helps....

[The Boss]

Mike, Have you got a picture of the Jeanie car you could post?

[John V.]

MikeN., thanks for sharing that stuff about the Barris cars.

I'm glad somebody has the goods on the Jeannie Firebird. Don't know what Wangers was thinking, assuming it was related here correctly. Not to be overly critical, but his attention to historical fact has never really impressed me.

I'm guessing Pontiac supplied cars to the Jeannie producers in exchange for "promotional consideration". ie., mention of Pontiac in the credits at the end of the show and possibly exposure on the show. That 'bird was no doubt a fairly common 'bird convertible. It was undoubtedly delivered thru some LA area Pontiac dealership (maybe the same one that delivered the Two Lane Blacktop cars). The only question is who had responsibility for adding the Barris features? I suspect the Studio took ownership of the car, my guess would be that the Studio arranged for the mods. As far as not being able to sell it, I think at most they were probably only obligated to feature it in a couple episodes to fulfill the "promotional considerations" that PMD got out of the deal. After that, I'm sure the Studio could keep or dispose of it as they saw fit. No doubt, it would be neat if that car still existed with all of its Barris features.

Glenn, thanks for clearing up the multi-leaf spring question.

BTW, there is a story behind those 6 digit (54xxxx) p/n assignments, I wonder if John Sawruk has the skinny on them?

Here is what I think happened. As the '69 Model Year rolled on, PMD Engineering continued to assign p/ns from the 979xxxx sequence that originated in Calendar Year 1962 with p/n 9770001 assigned to the "Pontiac" script front grille nameplate used on the '63 Cat & Star Chief. Anybody think it was coincidence that they chose that part to initiate the new p/n format?

As they approached 9799999, a decision was apparently made to abandon this numbering system. I do not know why. Maybe a new computer system was introduced that only allowed 6 digits in the p/n field?

But I believe I know what happened next. As a stopgap, PMD Engineering began issuing p/ns from the same numbering system that had been abandoned in 1962. That 6 digit format had been in use for many years prior and by 1962 numbers around 548*** were being assigned before that system was abandoned for the 7 digit 977**** system.

When the dust settled, a new numbering system was initiated that started with a p/n around 477001 from what I can tell.

But before this new system was put in use, for a short time some parts received p/ns from the pre-1962 system. I do not know if these p/ns that were assigned in 1969 were previously assigned to older parts or if they were perhaps never previously assigned to a released part. My gut says they were never previously assigned, but if not, they must have been "skipped" over for some reason back in 1961 since p/ns were sequentially assigned and parts with "higher" numerical p/ns were issued in 1961.

When the 477*** number system was put into service during 1969, even this format overlapped the older system. I can only imagine that it was presumed no confusion would exist since the older parts with identical p/ns were surely obsoleted by the time the p/n was "recycled". But I believe that a p/n assigned from this system would have been assigned to an entirely different part many years earlier.

I know, nothing to do with this topic, but figured I'd mention it for yuks.

[MikeNoun]

Not sure if a photo of the "I Dream Of Jeannie" car even exists. Back in 1996, I began taping all the "I Dream Of Jeannie" shows, then zooming through them and transferring off any footage of any Pontiac. Turned out to be about 40 minutes worth, from 2 second shots of a 65 GTO all the way to 45 second shots of a 69 Firebird 400 convertible. Yep, I know, what the heck was I doing recording Pontiac segments when Barbara Eden was walking around in a harum outfit, but heck, I was just looking for Ponchos, despite what my wife thought at the time.

Anyway, the green 69 Bird was always a source of conversation with my Pontiac buddies (this was long before the internet). I looked at the footage so closely, and then began trying to find a photo of this car in any reference book, but never found one. Some things I do remember though, was that this car was seen in at least 3 different episodes.

In one episode, Major Healy has the car parked, and he is trying to stall for time (can't remember the premise exactly). He comes up with every excuse he can to not start up the car. Finally, someone orders him to start the car and leave. His last attempt at stalling was that he fumbled with the keys, then said, "Oh, I forgot, they moved the ignition key on these new cars." (reference to the new column mounted ignitions on the 1969 models). I noticed the car had a woodgrain dash/custom interior, white seats, and you can very plainly see the power window switches for front and rear seats. Also, when the car pulls up, you can see white stripes on the hood (the top is down).

In another episode, Major Healy (and Tony) are walking around Major Healy's car in a parking lot to get to Tony's car, and you can see the 3-piece spoiler quite clearly, and I believe it had a white tail panel.

I have a photo of the George Barris "Superteen Firebird", but I cannot get anything to upload right now (can anyone?)

As for Jim Wangers, I admire the guy tremendously! His book "Glory Days" is fascinating, and I highly recommend it. But it's impossible for him to recall every single car he ever ordered for promotional use. I don't blame him a bit for mixing up a story (or car) now and then.

[1969T/A]

I just wanted to state that Jim Wangers was very clear on the fact the
"I dream of Jeannie" car was a 1969 trans am.
He also said that the 1969 trans am in the early days was a flop.
He said that if a dealer was a friend of John DeLorean
He would make a car anyway they wanted
just to keep up interest in pontiac and the trans am.

[1969T/A]

Here's a pic of the superteen firebird
http://transamtrader.tripod.com/superteen.jpg
http://transamtrader.tripod.com/supereteen2.jpg
Thats not the "I dream of Jeannie Car".

[MikeNoun]

Thanks for posting the photo. I couldn't get any photos to post, not sure why...

No one ever said the Superteen Firebird was the "I Dream Of Jeannie" car, so I'm not sure what your point was there. The parts used on the 1968 Superteen Firebird were sold and marketed by Barris, and the parts were later installed on the 1969 Jeannie car.

As for Wangers stating that the Jeannie car was a 69 Trans Am, he's mistaken. Remember, this was the guy that lied straight faced for 35 years about the Car & Driver 1964 GTO NOT having a 421 under the hood. Dozens of books, and perhaps a hundred magazine articles, over a 35 year period, all quoted Wangers about that famous 1964 GTO road test, and he was lying all along, so take what Mr. Wangers says with a grain of salt.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

I just wanted to state that Jim Wangers was very clear on the fact the
"I dream of Jeannie" car was a 1969 trans am.
He also said that the 1969 trans am in the early days was a flop.
He said that if a dealer was a friend of John DeLorean
He would make a car anyway they wanted
just to keep up interest in pontiac and the trans am.

wow, what a confession from wangers. i guess now that bill knafel is dead he doesnt have to compete against him anymore.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

As for Wangers stating that the Jeannie car was a 69 Trans Am, he's mistaken.

I would need to see your proof he was mistaken.
Like he told me there is no records of the car on file
So how can you base your info on anything?

Just because some guy made aftermarket parts
at one time doesn't prove anything.