[Todd Kozak]

It appears that the first 2000 were all built with the same options, or very similar anyway, 4 speed trans, radio p/b, belts-deluxe, console, pwr-strg w/t, glass s/r all, saf-t-trk-hd,mirror-remot, tach-hood-mt,rally ga&cl,disc brk pwr, the judge. The only variations I've seen is white or black interior color. All were carousel red.So, I would say that Pontiac corporate spec'd these out and then sold them as a 'theme' musclecar or package to the dealers. This is quite common these days, you can't order much anymore, its all pre-fab when it comes to factory performance machines. What does everybody think?Was the 69 Judge the first time this occurred? In the days of free love and free thinking and options galore, was the 69 Judge the first 'pre-packaged' musclecar?

[Steve Hoog]

When do you think they released these cars? I don't know about the option thing, but I do know they were all the same color and heard they did not have the glove box emblem.

[md1twal3]

How does one know if they have one of the first 2000?

[Steve Hoog]

I've read something like that several times over the years, so I loosely take it as a fact until better information comes along. The origin of the story may be Pontiac, but I'd have to dig in some old books to find what I'm remembering. After I get done cleaning out the ole garage, I'll see if I can find it.

[smrace]

I agree with jimwankers, I use to own one of the 2,000 and it had the options as mentioned and I have noticed that about other Judgea made early that would be in the first batch of cars made. Mine was a black interior 4 speed car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Have always thought mine was probably one of the first batch, but could easily be wrong.

2C build with no glovebox emblem or dash emblem. Not quite the same exact equipment as previously mentioned. Carousel/Parchment : RamIII 3peed manual : 3.55 Saf T HD : In-Dash Tach&Gauges : Console : Radio PB : Front-Rear mats : Door edge Guards : SoftRay WS : PDB : PS : Judge.

It's getting 9 more options added when I do the Car.

It wouldn't break my heart either way, but do we have a confirmed date range on the first 2000 ?

[Todd Kozak]

I think they were built in January and February of 1969, they were all as described above and of course I forgot to mention the first time, they were all sans the glovebox emblem. But back to the question, was this the first time an automaker popped a 'pre-packaged' i.e no options , musclecar on the public?

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by md1twal3

How does one know if they have one of the first 2000?

???

[Steve Hoog]

Thanks for the date Jim.

md1twal3, An early build date would be needed, and it may be the no glove box emblem that is the other. I think the rear lower qtr molding was no on the first amount of something, not sure it was just early GTO's or the Judges?

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

Thanks for the date Jim.

md1twal3, An early build date would be needed, and it may be the no glove box emblem that is the other. I think the rear lower qtr molding was no on the first amount of something, not sure it was just early GTO's or the Judges?

I have a third week of Feb Judge, no Judge emblem, but I do not have a console. It has the floor mount 8-track player. Not sure about the rear quarter trim as mine is gone and the quarters are very rusty. I will look for screw holes for evidence in that area.

I am just trying to find out, so I can help add support for the theory, or add evidence against it.

I wasn't sure if the cowl tag or the VIN offered the specific number it was, but then Judge was an option, so I suppose it was pretty hard to tell from numbers in either of those locations...

[Steve Hoog]

I'm fairly certain; although it's not a fact, the emblem is as close to a sign as you can get. Unless ALL the production figures were tallied and statiscally divided, I don't know how else you would tell. I had an auto III Judge a while back with no glove box, and I wondered if it was one of these first few or some one helped them self to the original glove box door. I've got the invoice at work and can check the date tomorrow.

But if my old Judge was one, then you can forget about the option thing being preset. I imagine that if these cars were pre shipped by Pontiac to the dealers, the just kept it at a minimum of options.

My uncle ordered cars for a our family dealership, I'll call him to see if he remembers anything.

[Ron Landis]

built late february, Carousel Red, RA III, 4-speed, p/s, pdb, hood tach and guages, s/r windshield, AM push button, remote mirror, no console, has Judge emblem, no GTO dash emblem, has rear quarter chrome and deck lid trim, and 3.55 Saf-t-trac. Black interior, light blue stripes. BTW....what is the date on the stripe color break? I've always used this feature to identify early cars. Was I wrong?

[Steve Hoog]

Just had an interesting conversation with my uncle about this, his memory typically sucks but he remembered this well.

This was indeed the first car that Pontiac did this "pre ship" sort of thing, but it carried on from that point with specialty cars. The one and only Judge that went through our dealership was a part of this. It was a combonation of phone calls and written communications that they asked him if they wanted 1 of the first Judges, he thinks they may have offered 1 to all dealerships. He wasn't clear on this part, but he thinks Pontiac optioned the car. I have seen the dealer bill on this car; and the car itself, it had a power antenna and was a III car with 4 speed. That's all I can remember off the top.

Certainly not hard evidence, but something cool to work with I think.

[1969Judge]

md1twal3,

I don't believe that the rear quarter trim had anything to do with this. My understanding was that the trim went on all the '69 GTO's until they ran out, somewhere in the May/June '69 timeframe (depending on the plant). Both of my cars came with it. One was built in Baltimore in March and the other in Arlington in May.

jegstek,

Is there some significance to the deck lid trim? I don't recall hearing that one being mentioned before.


From my research on the Judge convertibles, they don't seem to follow any particular patterns concerning options. I have found cars with only 3 options and some with 24 or 25 options. Many of the cars that I am aware of were built after March which makes me wonder if that had something to do with warmer weather approaching in many areas of the US and Canada? It makes some sense but that is just a guess.

[UPC-WU2]

My April-built Judge has rear quarter trim. It also has glovebox emblem and no dash emblem. Built at Arlington.

[Steve Hoog]

Pontiac GTO Restoration Guide page 112

"The intial 2,000 units were "planned" models, and were all painted Carousel Red."

Goes on to talk about both dash emblems when and why, and the molding as 1969Judge talked about. And there were no Judges sequenced before January 69, the glove box emblem became available in mid February according to the book. That may leave room for the first 2,000 to have the emblem or the opposite, so that may not be a dead give away. The only difference I had ever heard was the different colors became available after the first 2,000, not that options were effected by this production number. Would be interesting to know the facts on how the first few were indeed optioned.

These books aren't perfect as we all know, so take it with a grain of salt.

[1969Judge]

I have heard a lot of this discussed over the years also. I know the stripe colors changed early on and that may or may not be related to the first 2000. Colors other than Carousel Red became available sometime after March 1 though I have no idea of the exact date. My March car is Carousel Red and the May car is Silver and I know for sure that one was ordered that way (the original owner wanted any color other than Carousel Red).

My friend recently picked up an all original Carousel Red '69 Judge HT. It was a California car that has been off the road since the early 80's. It is a Fremont car and it was built the first week of March. We were both surprised to see that it did NOT have a Judge emblem on the glovebox. Perhaps the emblems had not made it to Fremont yet when that car was built.

[Steve Hoog]

1969Judge

Do you have any idea what the earliest 69 GTO (non Judge) was produced with Ramair, as in anything in late 68?

[supcarbob]

The first '2000' Judges ordered are not necessarly the first '2000' produced. There were actually -2- pattern orders that the factory/zone office used to order the first Judges.They consisted of 4-spd,radio,deluxe belts,console,pwr steering,tinted glass-all,safe-t-track,remote mirror,hood tach,rally gauges,disc brakes,the Judge,the second pattern was turbo hydro matic,radio,deluxe seat belts,rally gauges,disc brakes,safe-t-track,remote mirror,console,pwr steering,tinted glass-all,air cond,the Judge.
You can determine these 'first orders' by looking at PHS invoice. On top in center is 'dealer order'.There would be a '000 followed by 2 numbers'.This showed the use of a bulk order being used in place of standard single car order form. Also on lower right next to dealer code is a 5 digit code (example 10-992). This is the original zone office where car was ordered through prior to being assigned to selling dealer.
I have seen these cars with/without glove box emblem. It is based on assembly date. Earliest built factory/zone pattern order I have seen is 3rd week of January. Fremont plant appears to have started production before all other 5 plants. Earliest build dates from other 5 plants all appear to have started last week of January and invoice billing between 2/12 to 2/17. The earliest non pattern(dealer ordered) Judge I have seen from invoice is 1-31-69 from Fremont. I have invoices for 'first factory/zone pattern orders not built until early March. I guess what I am saying is some plants started producing the 'dealer orders' sooner while others were still building ' first 2000 factory/zone orders'.
The factory/zone ordering the first of a new model is nothing new. I remember that happening on several new models from the 1960s to this day at our dealership.
The earliest Ram Air III with exception of early pilot cars I have seen on PHS is mid December '68 from Framingham plant,earliest Ram Air IV is last week of February from Arlington plant

[Ram4king]

That is very informative information you have there Bob! I have a 69 non carousel Ram Air IV Judge That was built on March 1ST! The selling dealer assured the original owner of my car that his car was the 1st non carousel judge built! [I know,what are the odds of that?] but he was very sure of what he was telling me. He said he went straight to Pontiac to get it ordered because dealers were not taking orders for non carousel cars yet!Anyway,Could my car be the 1st Ram Air IV non carousel Judge built? I think Id have a better shot at the one. Whats your opinion?