[Baron Von Zeppelin]

A while back we had a big discussion about engine sequence unit numbers for 1969 and newer. Just found this 1969 Billing History with the engine unit sequence number listed. This Billing History was obviously obtained in the very early days of PHS offerings by a previous owner. They have not included these in 1969-newer for a long time and this may one of very few that "slipped" out.

Just goes to prove PHS does have access to this information (at least up to this build) but prefers to keep us un-informed.

By the way, this Car/Judge is listed on eBay. The auction information is sketchy and I can't read the buildsheet. Car appears to be re-bodied. The only thing on it Orange is one door hinge. All jambs, trunklid supports hinges, and cowl are matador red/burgundy-ish. Would explain the factory air upgrade. Still a d@mn good Car.

Judge on eBay link

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Buildsheet for same Car

[Chiefpontiac]

I've been watching this car as I have been looking for a '69 Judge project for awhile. Anyone near Boca Raton FL that can look at it?

BTW - The hood tach is orange too...

[taximan]

Baron;

Jim Mattison was asked about this a couple of years ago, and claims to not have access to this info. According to him it came from another source because it was zone related info.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by taximan

Baron;

Jim Mattison was asked about this a couple of years ago, and claims to not have access to this info. According to him it came from another source because it was zone related info.

Yes Taxi, we have all heard similar to that. But here it is, and is identical to what PHS sends (or used to send) with 64-68 GTO's etc... the billing history card, not the invoice.

Current owner claims it came in an older PHS info packet. I only know of one PHS past or present. I will try to contact him again.

[Steve Hoog]

Doesn't exist......... HAHA

[The Boss]

The ones we used to get from Fred Simmonds were off of micro fiche.

[Steve Hoog]

I've seen one for a 69 RAIV Firebird, they do exist as I have said before. The matter of getting your hands on this imformation seems to be the trick. I don't know the motives and who is putting the clamp down this information coming out to the normal person, but without a doubt there are powers at hand here that we are unaware of.

[dancolkate]

I've posted before on this subject.

At this point, it is strong speculation that PHS or (someone else) has data that matches the VIN to the engine number. My guess is at some point, "they" stopped providing the data when "they" realized it could easily be used to "create" a numbers matching car.

If this info is being held back, it's good and bad for us.

For example, I feel 99% sure my car has the original engine. If I had the "info" we're talking about, I could sure without a doubt.

Dan

[Steve Hoog]

Dan

It's pointless whether we "the public" don't have access, in reference to completely verifying an engine. Since "they" don't give it out; except the the VERY elite few, we "the public" could never clarify an engine to this level. Since the VIN and the Engine Unit are unique to a particular vehicle, they are in fact one in the same.

So if some one currently retamps a VIN; but doesn't change the Engine Unit, it doesn't really matter because we "the public" have no way to check it. If the Engine Unit was made available to us, then the restamp would become common practice on the Engine Unit number as well by people that already partake in fabricating the VIN.

The original purpose of concealing the Engine Unit was a theft protection; most likely.

Today I suspect the concealment of the Engine Unit; is for the personal gain of a very few at the top. Maybe "they" feel a stroke of power; knowing they have one way to illude to themselves a form of control over "the public". Or they feel an edge in authenticating a motor that no one else; "the public", can.

What do you think about that?

Steve

[Judge273]

This is the first time I was aware that another form of a "paper trail" exists for Pontiacs.

Who are "they"?
Who are the "elites"?

[dancolkate]

Steve,
"Today I suspect the concealment of the Engine Unit; is for the personal gain of a very few at the top. Maybe "they" feel a stroke of power; knowing they have one way to illude to themselves a form of control over "the public". Or they feel an edge in authenticating a motor that no one else; "the public", can."

1) With your statement above I agree 100%.

My point is this:
Many on this board have suggested the info exists. I strongly believe it does because while trying to confirm my engines originality, one member suggested "if the VIN stamping was questionable, "someone" would likely come formward to confirm or deny it's authenticity".

We are beating our heads against the wall until someone "in the know" comes forward to at least PROVE that the data exists.

Even then, what would be our course of action?

[md1twal3]

Fellas....come on now....if this information exsists, you know that the owners of it are only keeping it confidential to ensure authenticity within our hobby and to protect all of us against fraud and restamping

[Steve Hoog]

Fellas....come on now....if this information exsists, you know that the owners of it are only keeping it confidential to ensure authenticity within our hobby and to protect all of us against fraud and restamping

HAHA

I know two people that have given out this information for a number of years. I think that all of your a VERY capable of figuring out who one of them is. I will not drop names, because I don't want to be the one to let the cat out of the bag!

[Judge273]

So, the BIG name collectors get the information in exchange to never reveal the sources, and deny they know anything. Really? This underground network is in place?

That would explain why they won't share information about cars of historical importance. Power is knowledge and all...

[Steve Hoog]

I do not know who all has been allowed access, just one person that I know.

It's really nothing to worked up about; as I said, if this information were available it would also be forged along with the VIN. So you wouldn't really be able to stop anything, even if. But this does leave a window of power for the Elite few. The public's only tool; would still be to identify a fake stamping by the stamp itself as both numbers would then be forged.

Do you think the few people that are given this information would ever share it? Do you think the people that have given it out, would do so for Joe Public? It's a POWER thing, pure and simple.

[dancolkate]

Steve,
C'mon, post the name. We'll keep it amongst the 6,446,131,400 of us......

Baron,
I'll bet you a 30 pack PHS doesn't event respond to you.

Md,
This circle jerk just keeps going doesn't it?

[Steve Hoog]

Dan

Just take a wild guess. I'll bet a bottle of Jack and Joint you know who one or both are.

[md1twal3]

steved400...I'll throw one out there....steve400 is one of the few lucky...am I right?

Now, If I lost, you have to share the joint and the jack with me!

dan...yes, it continues in a pivotal-cyclical motion!

[Steve Hoog]

NO it's not me! And I was betting about the givers, not the recievers.

So when's the party?