[Greg Reid]

NICE '70 Napster..Very nice.

[MCronkGTO]

All you guys that think rebadging a car (putting Judge decals on a GTO or Lemans) is perfectly ok because the PHS paperwork will easily identify the car. WRONG! In this day and age of six figures prices and the ease of altering the PHS documents, don't cry foul when you get burned. Why do you think most people protect the VIN#'s? Just like credit card fraud if someone get's your VIN it IS possible to get PHS documents and in some states a lost title paperwork. There are sources that will create a body tag for you too. Now someone has cloned your real Judge using your VIN#, guess what happens next.

MarkC

[gto4evr]

Let it GO!!!!!! To all you guys protecting the 2nd future owners of clones: what are you doing about the guys buying postage stamps and reselling them as unused originals after they re-gum them? Putting new rugs into a water damaged house and flipping it as "excellent condition"??? I don't hear anyone screaming about that!!! You've taken up the torch for fraud protection on one out of an infinite number of potential fraud scams out there. It's up to the BUYER if he's willing to pay XX for a car, whether he likes it for what it is or is buying it for an investment, the responsibility to protect oneself from the sharks out there lies solely with the buyer. I DEFINITELY do not advocate cloning for profit, but it's also not my responsibility to protect every guy on the planet with a wallet from making an uninformed decision. Should I feel bad for him if he's buying that "Judge" from a grieving widow for $8,000 because he thinks he's going to make a killing on the resale? he's borkering the deal because he plans on pocketing the difference and then finds out he jumped the gun without running the PHS because of his OWN greed? So his greed is okay, but the greed of the 2nd seller isn't, all because someone built a beautiful clone and shouldn't have been allowed to according to you? Send a letter to Pontiac and complain to them for making the parts interchangeable. If it wasn't for that, this wouldn't be an issue now would it? Anyone ever seen a Catalina cloned into a Judge?

MOVE ON...Next topic PLEASE!!!!

PS, Napster, NICE car!!

[gregsgtos2]

gto4ever-I SECOND THAT MOTION!LETS ALL MOVE ON TO A DIFFERANT TOPIC!

[adam woodmancy]

i personally have had and sold 5 different gto's since i turned 16 8 years ago, and the only car i have kept is my 72 luxury lemans. However, i dream of owning a orbit orange judge. guess what!!! NO car, gto or otherwise is worth 200K NO car judge or otherwise is worth 100K. And in the age when most kids my age are into hondas and crap, some of us want to own our favorite musclecars that were obsolete since almost the time we were born. I despise people claiming to a "real judge" when it isnt, but as far as someone building a "judge clone" .. thats the only option some of us have! as long as im not trying to sell it as a real judge, or lying to people and saying its a real judge, then get over it. a lot of the people that can afford a real judge dont deserve the privelidge to own one. so we do the best we can with what we got.

[enjoytheride7072]

I'm here to beat the dead horse one more time. I too, turned 16 eight years ago, and I was obsessed with old muscle since that day. I agree with the previous post, that our generation loves the hondas and the mitsus, and what's a poor boy to do whenever it's a big dog world out there. We clone.

It's not so much cloning on my behalf. I took a 72 Chevelle SS 350 and dumped a big-block in it, and my 70 Lemans has an endura bumper and new sheetmetal on the way. The Chevelle's a 500 horse ground pounder, and the GTO will be a little more docile, but it'll still sound, look, and run wicked.

But, what burns me are these guys who come into my uncle's shop and precede to tell stories of how they used to hot rod these cars when they were younger, and how it'd 'do wheelies' in stock configuation, and how fast these cars were. These types are usually of the middle-to-upper- managerial or state police profession, who weren't even remotely interested in hot rodding or turning wrenches, and typically are nerds with a mid-life and/or self-esteem complex. Then they take their car that took X amount of dollars to restore with numbers matching junk, trailer it to the car shows, and get a trophy for their efforts, and just use these cars as 401K trading cards. Not me, I pound the things hard on the street, shine 'em up, and kill #'s Matching trailer queens in muscle car classes at all the local shows... and they, the grown men that they are, cry like babies about how much money they have invested, and blah blah blah.

These people who are only concerned with the worth of a car need to get out of our hobby pronto. As far as I'm concerned, they are just fairweather car guys, and will probably dump the car whenever they're not the 'in' investment. I'm not saying that it's not good to preserve the rare 'museum piece' muscle cars, and I probably wouldn't go out and pound an original RAIV Judge... ok, maybe a little...

I kind of rambled, but please guys, leave us people with empty pockets alone. We're just as big of this hobby as you guys are, well, even bigger.

[napster]

Well said!

P.S.- Greg Reid & gto4evr - Thanks for the nice comments.

Nap

[Jack Peters]

Adam & Enjoy,

Well said by both of you. Please stay in the hobby and do whatever you want with the cars you own. They are yours not mine or anyone elses. It is your money do spend as you please and THANK YOU for not going the foreign car route.

As much as I probably shouldn't I will drive my car when it is finished. It is rarer than any Judge but will never be worth the amount of the Judge. I really don't care. I probably will be put down for driving one of eleven and one of 6, 4 speed cars but again I really don't care.

I will restore it and then drive it. I do plan to race it, and that is why it will have steel rods and not cast rods but everything else will be stock. Miss a shift with a stick and you may be putting holes in blocks where they were not cast.

We do have PHS and anyone buying a Pontiac should be aware of them and order the doc's prior to purchase.

IF, (that does not mean when) I were to sell I would encourage the buyer to check out PHS on the car.

I am not a fan of cloning but remember a GTO/Judge is nothing more than a Tempest/T-37 that has had changes made to it to make it a GTO/Judge. The pedigree started with the Tempest. I just love to stir the bucket. And this topic is so easy to do.

[racerboy]

Originally Posted by enjoytheride7072

Then they take their car that took X amount of dollars to restore with numbers matching junk, trailer it to the car shows, and get a trophy for their efforts, and just use these cars as 401K trading cards. Not me, I pound the things hard on the street, shine 'em up, and kill #'s Matching trailer queens in muscle car classes at all the local shows... and they, the grown men that they are, cry like babies about how much money they have invested, and blah blah blah.

Just because someone chooses to restore a car, as opposed to cutting it up into a racecar, doesn't mean they are any less "into" the hobby then you. It is the restoration business that has kept this hobby alive (remember who sponsors this site?). The hobby is big enough for all types (restorers, clones, racers, etc.).

[adam woodmancy]

Originally Posted by racerboy

Just because someone chooses to restore a car, as opposed to cutting it up into a racecar, doesn't mean they are any less "into" the hobby then you. It is the restoration business that has kept this hobby alive (remember who sponsors this site?). The hobby is big enough for all types (restorers, clones, racers, etc.).

i have nothing against people who restore these cars, and your right, it does keep the hobby alive. i am getting ready to do a complete resto of my dads 64 goat and i have several uncles who do the same with all theyre cars including a #'s matching 69 judge. my arguement was towards the hatred of people who clone cars. I have no problem with someone cloning a car because thats what they like. more times than not, even if they could afford a judge or something special like that they'd be to afraid to drive it and enjoy it. so if i can take a lemans or tempest and paint it like a judge and get the satisfaction for myself at a price i can afford, im all for it. BUT!!!!! AND THIS IS BIG. I AM STRONGLY AGAINST SOME CON ARTIST TRYING TO PASS IT OFF AS THE REAL DEAL. as long as the person is honest and stright forward about it being a clone, then im fine with it. Try to pull a fast one though, and you deserve all the hate mail you get. just my 2 cents.
i race and restore, so i do everything i can to keep the hobby alive, but the sad but true truth is... things like barrett jackson and other such auctions have driven the prices up, and now every joe blow with a 6 cylinder tempest or skylark thinks their cars is worth 20 grand ( and thats with the floorpans rusted out) people have just got to get these things in check and come back down to earth, otherwise the musclecar hobby wont live past my generation. I personally fear the day when musclecars price themselves out of existence, but unfotunately, i dont think that day is real far away. we all just need to get real and enjoy the cars

[enjoytheride7072]

Originally Posted by racerboy

Just because someone chooses to restore a car, as opposed to cutting it up into a racecar, doesn't mean they are any less "into" the hobby then you. It is the restoration business that has kept this hobby alive (remember who sponsors this site?). The hobby is big enough for all types (restorers, clones, racers, etc.).

Umm, who said anything about a race car? I build mine for the street, but not street racing. I'd never, ever cut vintage metal for a drag car whenever there's a vast plethora of fiberglass bodies and tube chassis out there..

In the past eight years of being a licensed driver, I've driven and worked on everything from radical 500+ cube prostreeters to stock-restored 1947 Ford stakebody. My point is simply that cars were meant to be driven. Sure, you can keep something nice, and there's always that risk of wrecking it, but at least it's enjoyed for it's intended purpose. Most guys won't drive them because of the value, but will jump at a chance to have them displayed in a museum. This older lady came up to me at a show I had my Chevelle at, and told me the heartbreaking story of how her graduation-present, AACA-quality restored, low-mileage LS5 convertible w/ air was lost whenever the museum's roof gave way. She says she regrets she never got to take her grandchildren for a ride in this car, and vowed the next few her and her husband did would be driven. Kinda admirable.

I don't want to come off as a jerk, or judge people on what they do. And generally, I don't see too many of the type I described around here, but just the past four years of car shows and pretentious jags who judge and preach to me about this 'hobby', well, ya kinda get sick of it. I'm only 24 and most of these car-show drama queens don't know a spot weld from a valve seal, but yet they are restoration gurus because they know how to write a check, and I fail to see how those guys are more into this than me. I have a term for these guys - subcontractors. And there's nothing wrong if you spent your life in your career and now you have the money to have someone restore it, like racerboy said, it's the lifeblood of this hobby, but just don't denouce little guys like me because we went the cheaper, do-it-yourself route. One thing's for sure - I guarantee I'll be into cars longer that the guy who builds them because 'they're valuable'.

[enjoytheride7072]

I also realize the intent of the original poster was directed at the frauds and deceptions, and I totally agree. It's a crime, and I believe it should be prosecuted as such if it came to it.

I kind of take things personal because the quality of my work is professional, and I'm awful proud that I can do what I can do, and it really cuts ya down whenever people who can afford a professional restoration cut you down because your 'clone' isn't on the same level as their 'resto', even if the 'clone' is shinier, louder, faster, and draws more attention.

Off the subject, wanna see what 15k and four years of patience, learning, and hard work can get ya?

[adam woodmancy]

i am guilty of cutting up a real 70 gto. nobody makes a body for it, so when we started the build, i had no choice. glasstek wanted like 5 grand plus the body to make a mold, and thats a little too steep for me. As i said earlier, the only car ive kept through the years was my 72 luxury lemans that was my 1st car. Its a little rough around the edges, but it looks repectable and runs and sounds good for a no maitenence car. ive won points championships bracket racing it on the weekends, while driving it back and forth everyday to school and work during the week. HERES WHERE THE STORY GETS SIC!! We all talk about turning lemans/tempests into gto's... But as far as i know, IM THE ONLY SICK S.O.B. to turn a 70 gto into a 72 luxury lemans clone. so how bout that. I decided i wasnt going to cut up my baby, so my gto racecar project is transforming into a luxury lemans clone racecar project paying tribute to my 1st car. how sick does that make me?

[RAIVJUDGE]

If you build a clone you have to have thick skin. Take a Yenko Chevelle or Camaro or a Judge. As soon as a person discloses that the car is a clone no matter how nice, it is often ignored. That is why a lot of people say "yea it's real" to avoid confrontation at a show, and that is how the lie begins. To avoid this, when the experts are at shows they should keep their mouths shut and opinions to themselves and just appreciate the car for what it is, good workmanship, nice paint etc. I have been to many shows and have viewed many mistakes, I keep my mouth shut, you never know the guy or gal who owns it did the best they could with the cash they have and maybe they have a lot of money and no clue. At least they are out there and enjoying the hobby. Most experts that make comments have empty garages.

I say it's your car do what you want.

Those that have been stating that a Judge is just a Tempest. Well it was the top of the line option. Just like a Shelby is to a Mustang, a Chevelle SS is to a Malibu, a Hemi Road Runner to a Satellite or a Trans Am to a Firebird.

They are all cool, just enjoy them!!!

[adam woodmancy]

Originally Posted by RAIVJUDGE

If you build a clone you have to have thick skin. Take a Yenko Chevelle or Camaro or a Judge. As soon as a person discloses that the car is a clone no matter how nice, it is often ignored. That is why a lot of people say "yea it's real" to avoid confrontation at a show, and that is how the lie begins. To avoid this, when the experts are at shows they should keep their mouths shut and opinions to themselves and just appreciate the car for what it is, good workmanship, nice paint etc. I have been to many shows and have viewed many mistakes, I keep my mouth shut, you never know the guy or gal who owns it did the best they could with the cash they have and maybe they have a lot of money and no clue. At least they are out there and enjoying the hobby. Most experts that make comments have empty garages.

I say it's your car do what you want.

Those that have been stating that a Judge is just a Tempest. Well it was the top of the line option. Just like a Shelby is to a Mustang, a Chevelle SS is to a Malibu, a Hemi Road Runner to a Satellite or a Trans Am to a Firebird.

They are all cool, just enjoy them!!!

nicely put. i wish there were more who behaved like you.

[enjoytheride7072]

Originally Posted by RAIVJUDGE

Most experts that make comments have empty garages.

Funny story about that. As most of us know, the clear way to tell a GTO up until 70 is the 242 in the VIN, well, for Chevelles, the magic number was 138, until 1969, then in '69, you could get a Chevelle in "300 different combinations" and the VIN designations changed, then again in 71 with GM corporate mandating the divisions to designate the powerplant within the VIN with a letter code...

I entered my 72 Chevelle in a local show called "The Best of the Best", where you had to submit a resume and all this other crap. There were no classes, basically a stock restoration could be judged up against a blinged out SUV - so the rules were gray area. This one doof, for lack of a better term, with a shirt on from a local body shop kept staring at my trim tag, and then kept telling the one judge stuff. Later I find out he told the judge that he had Chevelles back in the day, and that I was 'misrepresenting' my car as an authentic SS (which it is, only with a 396 in place of the 350) because it didn't have the '138' in the VIN. His buddy had a 68 Chevelle entered, and he gave me trouble before, so they both cried when I won. It must really suck to base your life off of $10 trophies...

Again, an expert with an empty garage.

[Judge273]

This one really is an example of a poor clone and is more of a clown? Even reading the ebay description it is clear that they took a 4 speed 400 GTO to do this to the car? It isn't making it better it just hurts to see a 71 GTO treated to this type of cruelty.

"1971 Pontiac GTO….Judge Clone Florida car I am listing this fine car for someone who is not Computer prone, and wants me to e-bay the car. First let me tell you about “Jim” the owner. He loves muscle cars, used to collect them and now is retiring. This GTO is a number match. It was painted 4 years ago, and cloned to a Judge. Let me amaze you with the description: Tires, (new white letters) don’t have 50 miles on them: It has Center Line Alloy Rims Engine is a 400 CI. With 3 single barrel carburetors. Headers. Positraction. New Clutch. New Pressure Plate. Throw out bearing. New Brakes. New Master Cylinder. Power Steering. Power Brakes. The car does not smoke. It has never been raced. It is a Sunday driver, and exposition car. It is rattle Free. No foul engine noises. The interior was never redone, it is completely original. Negatives: Radio does not work. Car came originally with A/C, but has no compressor. Let the pictures be your “JUDGE” Should you want to have it inspected before bidding or buying, please e-mail me at CANDOCK@Bellsouth.net This car is an 8.5 and could be a strong investment Happy bidding Mike PS: If you would like to hear how the engine sounds, e-mail me and I will send you a 15sec Video File PS: for voice contact, please call Rocky At 954-648-9087 "



I have a "cloned" 71 Judge that I love and drive all over town. Many people think it looks great too. It is a PHS documented GTO, with 455 HO, Ram Air, M-22, with formula wheel, dash tach, GTO that I consider to be more of a tribute to the Judge and can easily changed back to a 71 GTO 455 HO car.
It is very well done IMHO, and it is mine to have fun with.

[adam woodmancy]

yah judge273.. im with you.. thats pretty pathetic

[OVERULD]

My name is OVERULD, and I am a Clone-Owner. 71 LeMans NICELY cloned into a GTO Judge. It has a built '75 400 with '76 6X heads, Holley 650, TH350 Comp Cam, etc, etc. Now, when I turned 16 in 1971, I had the fortune of sharing a brand new 1971 Lemans with my sister. It was Lucern Blue with a painted white top, blue interior, 350 2bbl, TH350 and chrome hubcaps. All my buddies had GTO's, Firebirds, and there were some Mopars in the crowd as well. I used to turn the air breather cover upside down to hear the carb sucking air, and I put a Thrush glass pack on the single exhaust (until my sister complained to my Dad and he made me take it back off). I've wanted a GTO ever since. I'm 51 now and I finally got close. However, If I had somehow been fortuanate enough to keep that 71 LeMans until now - this is EXACTLY what I would have done with it. So, I'm happy and I drive this beauty as often as I can. I just got back from the local sports bar where it drew a big crowd in the parking lot. I don't tell people it is a true Judge. I tell them it is a 71 LeMans with a GTO front grill and Jude striping and wing. They think it is awesome and that's fine with me. If I take it to a show, I'll represent it for exactly what it is. And, I'll have a great time looking at the true Judges and thinking, Man - I saved a TON of money!

[bobslilgto]

I do say the majority of this post RULES. Looks like ALL IN ORDER. Yeh! I'm free