[stockcar32]

Hi all, I found a 70 Judge in a barn out here in Idaho today and the guy is wanting 7k for the car. It is need of a ground up resto. and does not have the original motot. It does have all of the Ram Air stuff under the hood and dash, the M-21 and 3.90 posi's still with it. What do ya think?

[70ra455]

Figure 7,500K for a WS motor and heads rebuilt and another $4,000 for the carburater rebuilt. That's $11,500. Plus your cost of ground up will be another $40,000 (I'm assuming professional work) so you're into the car for under $60,000 for a "correct" judge but NOT numbers matching. That's alright but not a bargain if that's what you're asking.

[BLKBRD]

If it's not a complete rust bucket, it's a very good deal at that price, especially if it's a desireable color combo.

[68addict]

I would take it, and get a regular GTO carb for it, screw paying 4,000 for a carb on a non-original motor. I would enjoy the car too. Most people at local cruises won't give a rats ass about a numbers carb or engine....if you go concourse, then you will have to pay....just a different viewpoint.

[1969 Ram Air]

$7k is reasonable if you want to make a good driver out of it. Many of us in the hobby have learned our lessons on restorations. You will have twice as much money and three times as much time as you estimate on the restoration, so it's always best to start with a solid, matching numbers car. But again, if you want a driver and you can do a lot of the work yourself, and you watch your expenses, it would be worth it.

[70ra455]

If you're going to make it into a driver and not worry about concourse resto and such then why pay $7,000 for a car that needs total resto? Why not pay $10,000 for a car that is numbers matching and just needs a paint job? Those cars are out there. Then for under $20,000 you've got a # matching car that can be a #2 quality show car. Even $25,000.

As one post was asking for Judge blocks it was TJH who pointed out that anything which was used on a Judge goes WAY UP in cost.

Depending on how much work you can personally do on that car AND what you mean by needing a ground up resto I be wary.

If by ground up you mean the following (and you mean to make it at least a correct Judge - otherwise why bother - you can put stripes and Ram Air on any ole' GTO or even Lemans clones.)

- Quarters NOS $3000.00 - 4,000 per set
- Fenders NOS $2,500 - $4,000 per set
- Dash pad redone - $1,000
- Dash Bezel redone - $500 (if you're core is good)
- Console redone - $400 (assuming you have a good latch type lid otherwise add another $300)
- Comfortweave material $800
- Rebuild Tranny $600 - 750
- Purchase correct WS block and #12 heads $4,000
- Purchase correct 7040273 carb $3,500
- Rebuild engine, heads, carb $5,000
- Cost to redo interior (not including dash and console mentioned above) $4000
- Body work and paint (why would you go with less than show paint if you need to do a ground up resto?) $6,000 - $12,000
- Rechrome bumper $500
- New bezels, lenses, handles, knobs, etc $1,200 if repro. If you want NOS (especially the tailight lenses then ADD another $4,000 or maybe more)
- Assuming your gauges need to be redone or restored and you have rally gauges $500 - 750
- Assuming you have Rally 2's and they need to be restored $500 but if you need to get #'s and date coded ralleys then add another $400 - 750
- If you need a windshield (may as well once you go ground up) add $300
- If you need wheel well moldings (ground up can't use shoddy moldings when you've re-did the entire car) add $800 - 1,000 for a complete set NOS (they do not repro these) or add $400 - 800 for a used set including the repolishing.
- Ooops forgot - need those Rally 2 caps add $350 - 450 for NOS and about $150 repops. Lug nuts add $70 repop? and about $250 for NOS for a complete set.
- If you need trunk pans, floors, etc add the $$ for parts and labor.
- If you're body is coming off the frame then add for frame resto and re-paint
- If you're doing ground up then add complete resto of brake system. You may to rebuild your rear end? I would if ground up. Otherwise it'll cost you alot more to do it later.
- What about the engine compartment detailing? All the Ram Air components, etc must be re-shot. All your wiring harnesses need to be looked at and either cleaned, retaped, or just repurchased. That alone could be another $1,500 in expenses plus labor to remove/install.
- Hopefully the glass is OK.
- Does the Windshield wiper washer work? If so another $75.00 to restore the look (want a shoddy one with a ground up resto?) or add about $300 - 500 for an NOS one.
- Battery
- Any brackets, hangers, bolts, clips, yada yada yada can add WAY UP in the end
- Your exhuast system will be $400 - 600 installed.
- Tires

I think the point is made (or at least I hope so for your sake.)

Go with a driver car and you'll do better $$$. If you want this Judge as an investment your best bet is to pay the $7,000 and then turn it around for $10,000 to someone on here who has the talents and skills to drive their resto costs down. To me time is more valuable than money and it seems like I have less of each every day!

Or buy it and store it and it will be worth more money in a few years (most probably.)

But as a frame off/ground up resto cost vs. rewards IF YOU'RE LOOKING TO TURN IT AROUND ... I say in today's market it's not worth it.

IMO only and I wish you the best of luck either way.

[70ra455]

Just saw these ads on Classical Pontiac.

#1 69 Judge freshly restored Auto car $42,500
#2 68 4spd GTO rare Aegean blue frame off restored for $13,800 has hood tach and a/c. Needs paint and some assembly interior. Under $25,000 and you're out there with an AWESOME driver. For under $2500 you can have your stripes and ram air system too!

Just thought I'd point those two out and they are being sold by guys who do this for a living.

[1969 Ram Air]

I'd rather have a non-matching, four-speed judge that an automatic, matching non-judge.

[70ra455]

The auto car was and is a Judge - just non-matching. The comparison is for a 4spd non-matching Judge that he'll be into it for $60K or so versus an auto car for $42K. Which would you rather have? A restore non-#'s auto Judge for $42K or a restored non-#'s 4spd Judge for $60K+ I think the answer is obvious, especially considering if #'s is not a concern you could make the auto car a 4spd car for about $3,000 - $4,000 total soup to nuts.

Now here's another car for his consideration. This car is on this site! He would be into this car for under $20,000 and he would have a #'s 4spd GTO with a rebuilt engine!

************************************************** ******

1970 GTO,numbers matching project car. Original 4 speed, AC, PDB, posi rear car. PHS certified. Resto started with car being disassembled,body blasted and primed. New quarters and windshield channel installed along with drivers foot area.Trunk looks fine. New parts include rad support, front valance and fan shroud. Exc. used hood and RH fender, lower patch on LH fender. Frame and suspension need done. Motor rebuilt and balanced,original carb missing. Trans gone thru with rebuild kit, gears looked ok. Front buckets redone by previous owner with new covers , springs and foam buns. Almost $900 in the seats, back cover is included. Other options on car were fast ratio PS, ride & handling package, rallye wheels, AM radio, hood tach. Color is Pepper green with green vinyl top and green interior. I don't seem to have the time to devote to this project. Asking $8,900 OBO. Car is in lower Delaware. Contact me for more info here or call my cell at 410-726-1823.

************************************************** *****

[1969 Ram Air]

70ra455 - ok, good point. The 70 four-speed GTO looks like a good project. It's disassembled, which can be a total headache, but it would be a good car to restore.

[mmarx]

Originally Posted by stockcar32

Hi all, I found a 70 Judge in a barn out here in Idaho today and the guy is wanting 7k for the car. It is need of a ground up resto. and does not have the original motot. It does have all of the Ram Air stuff under the hood and dash, the M-21 and 3.90 posi's still with it. What do ya think?

I know the M21/3.90 combo was optional on the RAIII's...could this be a RAIV car? Do you have the PHS for the car?

RAIV barn find would be to cool...

Mike

[stockcar32]

I am going out to get some pics. today. I will post them by this evening. Thanks for all of the input and advice.

[bulletpruf]

If it's a real Judge, I don't think you can pass it up. If you don't decide to restore it, clean it up and sell it, and put the profits towards something that won't need as much time and $$$.

My $.02.

Scott

[stockcar32]

Well, I bought the Judge last night. Here are some pics for you guys..
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLan...7_740796068405

[bulletpruf]

Stockcar32 - congrats on your purchase.

Can anyone post pics of the car here? I can't access any sites like kodakgallery; all blocked.

Thanks,

Scott

[RicksGTO]

Stockcar, great find and congrats, that car seems like a good candidate for a resto and I don't think you could do any better on price. That car on eBay would have gone well over $10k. Here are some pics for Scott, take care over there, Rick

[steve v]

Hmmm, M-21, 3:90 rear AND a RA IV air cleaner base?

I'd be getting the PHS on this one next!

[stockcar32]

Thanks guys, I am bringing it home tomorrow and really haven't decided what to do with the car yet but wanted to make sure it lands a home with an enthusiast. I want to at least clean it up and get an accurate idea of what it needs besides the obvious; quarters, correct motor, front valance and interior.
Tony

[Matador-IV]

Definitely spend the money and get the PHS before you do anything...

That RAIV pan is interesting...certainly worth further investigation.

[allmycarsrjunk]

Number one, I'll buy 10 of those cars for 7 grand. Number two, get the phs, it would not be shocking if that was a Ram Air IV cas and if it is I want it.