[OG68]

Not wanting to hijack the Factory Never Did That thread but that thread got me wondering about the assembly/material differences between the assembly plants. Having an original Fremont car I know there are a few items on it that are different from the other plants.
I can see this as problematic with uninformed judges for those who show their car at national events

Some of the F body differences between Norwood and Van Nuys are well documented by the Camaro Research Group (CRG). What have you noticed?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by OG68

Having an original Fremont car I know there are a few items on it that are different from the other plants. I can see this as problematic with uninformed judges for those who show their car at national events

Absolutely.

This all started with the Corvette guys, who had one plant working one shift building one model type at a fairly low line rate (36 jobs per hour). Bless their hearts...

Compare that to Pontiacs, which had several plants building multiple models in different wheelbases and bodystyles and powertrains and nameplates, across two and sometimes three production shifts, and at line rates approaching 60 or 70 jobs per hour - and you have a recipe for variation.

There was even variation within the same plant within the same model year: when I started at Flint the front end sheetmetal was installed as a preassembled unit (ie "buck built") on Line 2 and as individual pieces ("Piecemeal") on Line 1. Same product, two wildly different processes under the same roof.

Keep in mind these plants were all build differently, with their own unique footprints, typically in the 1920's, 30's, and 40's. This can drive different process just based on the available real estate and where significant "monuments" (hardware or equipment that you are really loathe to relocate during a product or process change) were placed. Sister plants, or plants with the same basic architecture, weren't built until much later, like the GM Orion, Kansas City and "Poletown" (ie Detroit Hamtramck) plants in the 1980s.

Also keep in mind there is a constant creep to add parts later in the process. Everyone wants their part put on in the last station on the final line, so you have to be forever vigilant to keep pushing the work farther upstream, trying to keep the work load generally leveled for each production operator. As a result there is always a little bit of tuning going on.

The converse is also true: if product engineering wants to make a formal change, or request a process change/improvement, they have to solicit buy in from each of the assembly locations before the change can be implemented.

K

[Keith Seymore]

A couple things that come to mind are:

a) variation in pinstripe technique across '65-'67 GTOs, based on assembly plant. Those are pretty well documented here on a couple different threads.

b) Assembly errors - there is a somewhat well known Kansas City '65 that seems to have been built with the incorrect (non GTO) tail panel and cluster bezel.

c) Differences in primer colors between plants, and even differences between body primer color (red) and front end sheetmetal primer color (black)

d) Rolling implementation of ELPO dip tanks in replacing spray on primer

e) Location of various hardware installations, specifically door latches being installed either in the body shop before paint or in the trim area after paint.

Fremont tended to be a little more lax in general, both because of their distance from the watchful eyes of the home offices and plant, and because of the general prevailing attitudes of the time with respect to authority figures.

K

[Keith Seymore]

We’ve talked about the variation between plants, and the variation within an assembly plant due to different operators.

One thing I have never seen brought up is how many different operators might be on the same job, even within the same day. This might be an appropriate place to take a second and do so.

Some assembly plants shut down for “break times”. The UAW required 6 minutes of break time for each hour worked, distributed into a break in the morning and a break in the afternoon (not counting ½ hour for lunch). If that operator never takes an additional break (to use the bathroom, or for a medical issue) then you might only have one person on that job per shift. This is probably what the layperson or hobbyist would imagine.

However – some plants use a “rolling” break technique. Said differently: the line doesn’t shut down for break, and there is a staff of “utility men” or replacement workers who go to each job and give that worker a break individually. After that assembler comes back the relief man goes to the next job and gives that assembler a break, until everybody in the area has been covered - all this while the line keeps rolling. If you had a different relief man covering the morning break vs the afternoon break then you are up to three operators per shift; times the number of shifts (two or three); so you could have as many as 9 people touching those parts for a three shift productive operation.

That assumes the person doesn’t need a quick respite, covered by a different utility man, quality man (the foreman’s right hand man) or the foreman himself (in some cases) at some other point during the shift.

I say all this to say: there could be between 1 and 8 or 9 people performing the same job in the same assembly plant within a given 24 hour period. That introduces a whole ‘nother level of variation.

K

[Keith Seymore]

All the conversation thus far is about official "sanctioned" variation.

Then you still have to comprehend all of the "unsanctioned/under the table" changes that happened.

One of my favorite assembly line stories about such trickery has to do with factory bolts:

On the GM squarebody pickups, the attachment of the front fender "nose bolts" to the rad support was especially tough, because it was blind and had awkward access. As a result we would cross thread the bolts often or (worse) break the weld nuts loose. Once you do that it can't be fixed on the moving repair line; it has to go into a stationary stall for repair.

We discovered that there were two suppliers for a bolt that same size: One from Lang Fasteners and one from Ferndale Fasteners. The Langs would crossthread like crazy but the Ferndales wouldn't for some unknown reason, maybe because of the difference in coatings. The Langs (part number 3846202, btw) were black phosphate but the Ferndales were silver cadmium.

What we ended up doing was stealing a box of the silver bolts from Line 2 and run them all night with no issues, and then lock them up in our locker, set out a box of black bolts on the job and then go home.

We did that for several years. First shift could never figure out why we didn't crossthread those bolts and why they had a mess on their hands every day.

K

[mgarblik]

That is so funny that you mention the core support bolts and breaking/stripping them in assembly! In 1977 one of my college classes took a field trip from BGSU to Dearborn, MI Ford plant where they were building the Mustang II. We were all enjoying the very up close on the line tour set up especially for our class. Not the general public tour. While on the line where the core supports were being bolted in , I heard a pop noise about every 20 seconds followed by muffled cussing. Also you could hear the air ratchets running bolts in normally vs excessive noise from the extra torque required to cross thread and run a bolt in. This went on the entire time we were in that area. I bet I heard 40-50 cross threaded bolts going in or popping noise from breaking a bolt off. Now I feel confident that's exactly what was happening.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

...

One of my favorite assembly line stories about such trickery has to do with factory bolts:

On the GM squarebody pickups, the attachment of the front fender "nose bolts" to the rad support was especially tough, because it was blind and had awkward access. As a result we would cross thread the bolts often or (worse) break the weld nuts loose. Once you do that it can't be fixed on the moving repair line; it has to go into a stationary stall for repair.

We discovered that there were two suppliers for a bolt that same size: One from Lang Fasteners and one from Ferndale Fasteners. The Langs would crossthread like crazy but the Ferndales wouldn't for some unknown reason, maybe because of the difference in coatings. The Langs (part number 3846202, btw) were black phosphate but the Ferndales were silver cadmium.

What we ended up doing was stealing a box of the silver bolts from Line 2 and run them all night with no issues, and then lock them up in our locker, set out a box of black bolts on the job and then go home.

We did that for several years. First shift could never figure out why we didn't crossthread those bolts and why they had a mess on their hands every day.

K

That is VERY funny!!

Thanks for sharing all this!!

[vertigto]

Curious...were specific plants considered to be preferable than others during a particular timeframe (i.e. tighter process, better quality, etc.)?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by vertigto

Curious...were specific plants considered to be preferable than others during a particular timeframe (i.e. tighter process, better quality, etc.)?

Quality levels of the various plants were tested by corporate auditors, based on random vehicles pulled from production, and the results published and tracked. There was a big chart in the audit area ("big" like 4' x 8') which showed the quality, in order, for each assembly location. They also printed little 3x5 cards you could carry in your shirt pocket, I guess as a constant reminder of how bad things were going (and motivation to do better).

For pickup trucks I'd say Oshawa was the best. Janesville was very good, too. Flint was middle of the pack, to lower middle, but was also the only plant building squarebody Blazer/Suburban (so if you got one of those it was coming from Flint). Detroit always scored high, but was building P truck "chassis only" - so it was a comparatively easy product to build (with no body) and kind of emphasized some of the inherent difficulties of ranking the plants without taking the build complexity into consideration.

For Pontiacs - I'd want mine built in Pontiac Michigan, both because of it's proximity (I would be able to follow my own vehicles down the line as they were built, as I did with my pickup trucks) but also because of the reverence (all three of my Pontiacs were built in the "home plant").

Fremont would be my last choice, for the reasons stated above.

K

[Stuart]

That photo is a good comparison of the difference between a small back window and big back window pickup.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

[dataway]

I find this stuff of great interest. Just like when I see old historic ruins, I'm less interested in the ruin itself than I am in how it was built, why it was built that way etc.
Someone should write a book ... "Stories from the Factory Floor"

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by dataway

I find this stuff of great interest. Just like when I see old historic ruins, I'm less interested in the ruin itself than I am in how it was built, why it was built that way etc.
Someone should write a book ... "Stories from the Factory Floor"

The Norwood book really does a good job of this.

[Keith Seymore]

Agree - the Norwood book is good, and the CRG website is awesome http://camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Dimitrie Toth* has a regular feature in the Smoke Signals magazine called "In the Shadows of Pontiac". Dimitrie's dad worked in the casting pattern shop and is THE GUY that made most of the prototype intakes that we know and love. Dimitrie himself has been with GM for over 50 years, if I remember correctly, and is still working. Dimitrie is the one that, along with MJM421, pulled the George DeLorean '63 SD coupe out of an apple orchard. He is also the subject of many of the urban legends that you have already heard.

We had a couple good "Old Wives' Tales" threads going at one time, swapping back and forth around the virtual campfire:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=556607

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ght=assemblers

And then there are my own threads, if you haven't seen those yet. I worked for GM for 40 years in vehicle assembly and product engineering/development, and my dad worked for GM for 35 years as a diemaker at Flint Pressed Metal and then as an Advanced Manufacturing engineer for CPC:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524

K

*Dimitrie - if you happen to see this I need to apologize for misspelling your name for the last 40 years or so. I just now noticed that.

[GT182]

Keith, some info needed from your knowledge base if possible. My first 66 GTO I bought used in 1970. I found that it had a Saginaw 4speed in it. Not sure if it was factory as they didn't have a Muncie at that time to install. Was this possible? Or do you think it was a replacement for the Muncie some where along the time from 1966 to 70.

Years ago I'd heard that some GTOs in 66 came with the Saginaw 4speed from the factory, but could never confirm it. I can't remember if mine was Baltimore built or not, but I think it was as most GTOs [as I was told] were built there for the east coast. My present 66 is a Baltimore car with a factory Muncie.

Just for curiosity how was the GM plant in St. Therese, PQ above Montreal rated if you know? That was the one we hauled out of. And it was the very the last plant to build the Camaros and Firebirds in the 90s to their end.

Sorry this is off track from the F-bodies.

[unruhjonny]

the ongoing series in Smoke Signals is quite interesting.

@ GT182 - I would find it very hard to believe that a Saginaw was ever used in a GTO;
I don't think Pontiac ever used it in anything more powerful or bigger than a 350/2bb6 - or 326/2bbl
My guess is it was swapped in as a replacement.

[GT182]

Yeah, my thought too. Thanks Jonny.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by GT182

Yeah, my thought too. Thanks Jonny.

please don't take my thoughts as the gospel;
My understanding was that the saginaw was deemed a "light duty" four speed. As a light duty classified transmission, it was generally behind the Chevrolet inline six, or low powered, smaller displacement V8's;
I believe that it was rarely behind any noteable Pontiac V8;
I may be incorrect, but the singular instance that I am aware of a saginaw being used behind a Pontiac V8 which was factory assembled with a four barrel carb, was the 1974 GTO.
I'm not sure about the 1975 L76 350/4bbl engine - but I would guess those might have had it too.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Fremont would be my last choice, for the reasons stated above.

Amusingly, a Fremont A-body from the late '60s or early '70s is fine in my experience unless vinyl top as they seem to have sprayed the roof the least before vinyl top application. Where I really don't want a Fremont car is the F-bodies they built later on... some of the worst quality cars compared to the Norwood built.

Interestingly enough, it seems that what body era of car being built matters a lot compared to plant. Every '71-76 big car I've had over the years have had certain problems with them that were common between them and not related to where they were built compared to the '60s big cars, which seem to have more issues related to where they were built (South Gate vs. Atlanta). I have had more Fremont built cars than anywhere else (followed by the South Gate and then the Pontiac home plant). I have had people tell me all sorts of things were "wrong" with my car that were obviously differences in plants, it's quite annoying.

[camerjeff]

If I remember correctly, my 79 301 powered Formula came with a Saginaw 4-speed

[GT182]

Good info Jeff. I had a 350 Turbo in my 301 Formula. I was going to order a 4 speed but after driving that carhauler all week long I didn't think I'd really care to have a standard trans in the Formula.

After having it for 3 years I decided I'd screwed up and should have gotten the 400 with a 4 speed. But in the 4th I owned year it the car was gutted and I gave up on it. Couldn't afford to replace the interior and couldn't go after the AH that stole it all out of the car... he was buddies with the local town cops and the NY State Troopers for our area. He worked on their cars too so that sealed the deal with them. I was just barking up a tree for nothing.