[70-73nut]

Hi All,

Anyone well versed in possible legal actions
involving a misrepresented sale?

I purchased a car advertised (and I quote)
as "Zero miles, high level resto with completely rebuilt driveline and new interior.
This as a brand new car. Ready to show or drive."

I paid a hefty price for it.

It's been inoperable since it was delivered
five months ago. I'm going forward with the repairs, but would like to recoup the expenses.


There's much to the story if anyone has any time to hear and advise.

Thanks,
RC

[cat tracker]

I own a State Licensed Investigation Company in Texas. From experience, the first thing you do is to find a good attorney and have him give you advice. In Texas it might fall under Deceptive Trades Practices. Your State might have the same types of laws. If it had been me that purchased that car I would have started documentating by date and time everything that had been misrepresented and take photo's that have a date/time stamp on them. I would NOT have started any repairs or "fixing the problems". I would have requested my attorney send a "Letter" to the seller setting forth all the issues and tell him that the problems can be inspected and verified by his expert of choice. The main thing is to document, document, document, by date/time, date/time, date/time. I am afraid you are in for a expensive and eye-opening experience. - Dwight Sr.

[70-73nut]

Thanks for your note Dwight.

I have a pretty good paper trail documenting
phone conversations, faxes, emails and photos.

Also sent a lawyer a reatiner, but he never
seems to be available for any counsel.

I'm plagued with the naive notion that people
are honest and do what is agreed upon, but
am willing to accept the reality of the situation.
I thought I'd give it a shot here to see if anyone's been down a similar road.

Thanks again,
RC

[ks gto (Cap)]

I've been there---am there. I contacted an attny in the state the dealer is located and had previously been in legal action with the dealer.He grilled me pretty hard (trying to make me understand that "the case" could be/would be picked apart pretty hard by the opposition. Main point was list written description then list any discrepency that contradicts that written representation. Obviously the car would have to be appraised by a professional appraiser--then written statements by shops that verify your claim. Then attny told me to expect to have to make at least 2 trips to court-in the city where action is filed---then the estimate of his fee would probably $6-8000.
In some states there is a law that helps protect the consumer and you can sue for 3x the amount defrauded and if you win the loser has to pay your attny fee. That is the case in Pa.
Would really be interested in knowing who defrauded you....you can PM me if you would rather not say in the forum.----Cap

[cat tracker]

If it were me I would check around and see who else he did this to. You are probably not the first. Then I would go talk to them and see what they did about their problems. Then I would do a background check on him and see if he has a criminal record or might be on probation. If he is on probation he sure doesn't want his probation officer knowing about his activity. He might be an upstanding citizen in the community where he resides, and would not want it known what he did. The more you know about him when you go and talk to him about your issues the better you are. I wowld't tell him all I knew but enough to let him know that I had done my homework and it would be in his best interest to settle this matter quietly without a full blown court presentation where his past might come out and become a part of court record for future litigation. Then I would politely talk to individual and play a little "Texas Poker" and see who has the best hand. One find thought. Don't let him pay up right away if you have the "goods" on him. Let him sweat a few days. If you have done it right he will be knocking on your door wanting to settle up. Dwight Sr.

[cat tracker]

Robert: I work with and around Lawyers all the time. Lawyers who don't have enough time to talk with you after you have retained them are not the kind of lawyer you want representing you in a case. You want a Grizzly Bear not a Teddy Bear. - Dwight Sr.

[Judas]

Dwight has a point on the retainer.

I saw in my Carlisle program (whilst on the toilet) an attorney that claims to specialize in this area and thought of you. I could get his name if you like.

[70-73nut]

Judas and Dwight,

Thanks for the support.
I'd REALLY appreciate the attorney info.

I couldn't agree with you more.

The seller is actually a company, not an individual. I've located the previous owner
and have his info in (email) writing.
He's been very helpful.

I'm not trying to bury anyone at this point, but am willing to pay for some justice.

Thanks again,
RC

[cat tracker]

That is good news that you are dealing with a comany instead of an individual. Find out if they are incorporated. Corportations have very strict State and Federal guidelines. Contact the Better Business Bureau and see what they have on them. If they are a company see if they have any type of license to operate that is required. (That they may not have). Companies are held to strict guideline unlike an individual. Conduct a DBA (Doing Business As) search at courthouse in the county where they operate and find out who really owns the business. The owner and the person you are dealing with might be two different people and the owner may not know anything or approve of how his business is being run. I think you have a better chance of recovery with a company than an individual. - Dwight Sr.

[70-73nut]

Thanks Dwight.
I'll do just that as I'm building my case.
You are most astute in that the owner is
off location (different state), but I have a few phone numbers I intend to check out.

[slowgto]

RC, I hate to hear stories like yours and it seems too common. I have had significant misrepresentations on every used car I have bought, but not as serious as your situation.

I only looked into it once. Although the seller had specifically told me the '90 Mustang drove perfect and had no engine or trans problems, the trans was bad and I had to replace it for $2K. Not a fortune, but I was angry he had misrepresented it.

I spoke to two attorneys in PA and they both picked me apart as the buyer for not taking due care to protect myself by having a mechanic look at it. They explained it was a "buyer beware" situation and it was my fault and I had no case.

Even though it didn't work out for me, I certainly hope you pursue your case, especially since you have documentation, may go with an attorney that specializes, and you are going after a company.

Good luck and keep us updated. It is an important topic for us.

-Doug

[tdavidl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlowGTO:
...the trans was bad and I had to replace it for $2K. Not a fortune, but I was angry he had misrepresented it.

I spoke to two attorneys in PA and they both picked me apart as the buyer for not taking due care to protect myself by having a mechanic look at it. They explained it was a "buyer beware" situation and it was my fault and I had no case....-Doug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

doug,

i wonder if your attorneys would have "found a case" had the damages been $20k or larger ?

i'm a CPA and deal with clients wanting to go after people for various reasons from time-to-time. what i usually see is if the legal fees & the clients "time" value are more then the actual damages they usually tell the client it doesn't make business sense to pursue it, and they are usually right. they don't tell them they don't have a case though.

tim

[eaglesan13]

Robert,

You might get some specific, helpful information from the members if you let us know what state the seller is in. Also, if you wanted to post the dealer and vehicle info (your choice) there might be a chance someone on the board saw the car and could offer evidence that the car was misrepresented. As an example, about a month ago I saw a 1971 HO 455 trans am listed on ebay that was a few miles from my house. It was suppossed to be "numbers matching". A potential buyer, who was out of state, contacted a friend of mine who put him in contact with me. He called, and agreed to go look at the car. The car did not sell on ebay so the seller consigned it to a local classic car dealer who said he was not knowledgeable about Pontiacs. Well the car was a very poor restoration to say the least, and not numbers matching as advertised. The block and carb were restamps and the distributer was out of a 68 Pontiac 350 2 barrel car. The paint and body work were horrible and the interior wasn't much better. They actually installed the new headliner right over the dome light, so the light was under the headliner. I was very detailed in my description of the problems to the dealer. The next week I see it on their website for thousands more than previously advertised. My point is this, I could articulate in court that the dealer is aware of the true condition of the car. He could not claim he didn't know. So, if it comes down to it you might want to let the board members know what car it was and who the dealer is. Maybe someone saw the car and could offer evidence that would help your case.

Good luck. And if it came from central California, let me know.

[70-73nut]

Thanks all for your input.

The patient is a '71 TA blue/ivory auto.
Sold here in SC. I paid 32k.
I saw the car before I wired the money, but it was not available for a test drive as they had
yet to install shocks. I admit I was careless
(over trusting) at this point and did not
scrutinize the numbers as I should have.
I was a victim of "the fever".
The car was delivered to my home on December
23rd. I immediately drove it to fill up the tank. Performance was pathetic. I've owned
five 70-73 TAs in my life and am very aware
of how they should operate.
I drove for a few miles, came home and the car
would not restart. Tried numerous times over the weekend. Some yes, some no.
Finally got it to my mechanic who gave it a brief look over to find the incorrect carb,
Steering shaft about to come loose at the coupler, starter solenoid falling off, solid
motor mounts, fuel lines draping from the car,etc. He got it running only to have it die on the way home. Stipped eccentric bolt.
At this point I felt it best to have him go through the car thoroughly. The list of parts/repairs is up around $4k at this point.

And the carb, nor the tranny are numbers matching. The block, heads and intake are.

I've sleuthed out the former owner who informed me the tranny was slipping when he had it and he never rebuilt the block.
The seller can't seem to find any documentation proving otherwise to back up
the adverstised 0 miles, completely rebuilt
drivetrain.

Initially, the seller was willing to work with me on making the car right, but the list of repairs is so extensive combined with the non-numbers matching carb and tranny, combined with the former owner's info leaves me to feel
professional legal intervention is my best course.
If I could only find a lawyer who gives a hoot about right verses wrong.
I downloaded the original ad, have emails from
the former buyer and a mechanic who's willing to testify.

All that being said, I understand it may be a very expensive learning lesson, but have to admit I'll trust the next guy as well.
It's just how I am.

Thanks all again for your time and efforts.
RC

[tdavidl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robert campbell: ...All that being said, I understand it may be a very expensive learning lesson, but have to admit I'll trust the next guy as well.
It's just how I am....RC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RC, me too, and i don't think that's a bad trait. i'll always be willing to believe most people (there are those that you usually tell right off the bat that they're trying to sell you something).

live & learn is what i always say.

oh, and good luck on finding that mythical attorney

[70-73nut]

Thanks Tdavidl.

Mythical Attorney...
I like that.

Gives a new place to look in the Yellow Pages.

[poncho-mike]

Robert,

I had a problem with a classic car dealer a number of years ago.

I called him repeatedly but got no results. I threatened to take him to court, but that doesn't do much. The most you will get is a judgement against the guy.

What really got his attention was when I threatened to call the DMV inspector. In NC, dealers must maintain records and must regularly go through inspections with the DMV to insure they are complying with the rules and regulations that govern car dealers.

In my case, the guy had a wholesale license, which meant he wasn't supposed to be selling to the general public. After buying the car, I found the VIN plates had been swapped from another car. Had DMV gotten involved, he would probably have lost his dealer's license. I got my money returned promptly.

In your case, it might be worth going to the DMV inspection people and making a complaint. If the guy is selling cars, he should have a dealer's license. If he doesn't have a dealer's license, then that could be an issue in itself.

Mike

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by poncho-mike:
Robert,

I had a problem with a classic car dealer a number of years ago.

I called him repeatedly but got no results. I threatened to take him to court, but that doesn't do much. The most you will get is a judgement against the guy.

What really got his attention was when I threatened to call the DMV inspector. In NC, dealers must maintain records and must regularly go through inspections with the DMV to insure they are complying with the rules and regulations that govern car dealers.

In my case, the guy had a wholesale license, which meant he wasn't supposed to be selling to the general public. After buying the car, I found the VIN plates had been swapped from another car. Had DMV gotten involved, he would probably have lost his dealer's license. I got my money returned promptly.

In your case, it might be worth going to the DMV inspection people and making a complaint. If the guy is selling cars, he should have a dealer's license. If he doesn't have a dealer's license, then that could be an issue in itself.

Mike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Poncho Mike made me remember that a licensed dealer in most states not only have a license they are "bonded and insured". You might want to check with his insurance or bonding company and get a copy of his policy or bond. I would get a copy before I let him know what I was going to do because he might be able to prevent you from doing so. It doesn't mean you are filing a complaint just obtaining records. Most of those are "Public information" - Hope that helps - Dwight Sr

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Did he offer to buy the car back?

Did yoiu offer to sell the car back?

It'd be cheaper in the long run for both parties.

That is, unless he doubled his money on the sale, like some folks attempt on '63 Catalina wagons.

[racerboy]

Robert,
I am an attorney, but am not admitted to the bar in South Carolina (or PA). I sent a note out to a bunch of my attorney-friends asking them for any resources, particularly the Consumer Fraud Act, that might be of value to you.

I will send you any of the information that I receive.

Frank