[Steve Barcak]

This topic was originally in the parts wanted section. I feel it is better seen here. Agree? Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was asked on this board. In reference to aftermarket components, including heads and blocks, "When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore"? When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore if it has aftermarket parts? Corporate chebys with "pontiac" on the valve covers? What kind of crap is this? What is a Pontiac? First off, call a spade a spade. A corporate pontiac (pontiac is not capitalized on purpose when referring to corporate stuff). is a chevy based engine design PERIOD. pontiac in the 80s started designing parts to fit a cheby block. Because of this, pontiac lost its identity and many new car customers (myself included). Do you know how much the cheby boys chuckle about this? To the bow tie gang, pontiac changed to making cheby parts because the original (real) Pontiac engine was, in their mind, junk. Nothing is more degrading than seeing "pontiac" on a cheby engine such as prostock, etc. By running that corporate stuff, you are basically saying the same thing whether it is consious to you (them) or not. Is there anyone here stupid enough to think that Warren Johnson is a Pontiac man? If you beleive that you are in for an awakening, he is a bow tie man but, pontiac is throwing money his way so he whores to the pontiac name. It is all about money. All the current ads from pontiac about their participation in NHRA Pro Stock with WJ and others crack me up. Do those market people at pmd think that their ads are selling grand ams in the show rooms? They are wasting their money on those ads. Then they drop the Firebird and decide to bring back the GTO as a foriegn car. How more humiliating to us can they be?
On REAL Pontiacs. If you change the cam to an aftermarket one is it still a Pontiac? Damn right it is! Same goes for ANY other component you change, even a block. Why? Because you are still using the basic plans/blueprints from the original design and are making an improvement on an existing part to replace it. This is called development and it is very critical for our out of production (for 20 odd years) engine. This applies to cams, intakes, timing chains and, yes, even blocks and heads. Sure, it isn't factory anymore but, who cares? The factory obviously doesn't so, what do we do? Let the motor die by using up whatever parts are left? After decades of aftermarket development by the other brands, I am thrilled to see people/companies putting in time and money into the engine design that I love so much. Anytime a new component comes out that is designed to fit a Real Pontiac it is a blessing for us all. This is because , whether you use that particular part or not, it "waterfalls" to other potential ideas for componants for our engine. It further improves or potentially improves the design. Hey, the people at GM (or Pontiac division, whoever is/was responsible) gave up on the design but, that doesn't mean it is dead. Far from it. Again, I applaud companies like Edelbrock, Wenzler, IA, BOP and others who put time and money into developing good, quality parts for the engine design that is so near and dear to my heart!
That is what a Pontiac is, our motor with parts to fit our motor. God bless them and I hope more companies will do the same. I am even planning to make available some competition parts for REAL Pontiac engines after more testing is done. One goal of mine is to have a REAL Pontiac that is faster than any corporate powered anything and it is not a dream, it is closer than anyone may think. More?
www.pontiacheaven.org
A REAL Pontiac site for REAL Pontiac people!
and remember......REAL Pontiacs ONLY! NO corporate nonsense! I invite all REAL Pontiac fans to my event- "Pontiac Heaven Drags & More V" coming to Phoenix in April.
Proud to be a REAL Pontiac man.
Steve Barcak

[Steve Barcak]

This topic was originally in the parts wanted section. I feel it is better seen here. Agree? Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was asked on this board. In reference to aftermarket components, including heads and blocks, "When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore"? When is a Pontiac not a Pontiac anymore if it has aftermarket parts? Corporate chebys with "pontiac" on the valve covers? What kind of crap is this? What is a Pontiac? First off, call a spade a spade. A corporate pontiac (pontiac is not capitalized on purpose when referring to corporate stuff). is a chevy based engine design PERIOD. pontiac in the 80s started designing parts to fit a cheby block. Because of this, pontiac lost its identity and many new car customers (myself included). Do you know how much the cheby boys chuckle about this? To the bow tie gang, pontiac changed to making cheby parts because the original (real) Pontiac engine was, in their mind, junk. Nothing is more degrading than seeing "pontiac" on a cheby engine such as prostock, etc. By running that corporate stuff, you are basically saying the same thing whether it is consious to you (them) or not. Is there anyone here stupid enough to think that Warren Johnson is a Pontiac man? If you beleive that you are in for an awakening, he is a bow tie man but, pontiac is throwing money his way so he whores to the pontiac name. It is all about money. All the current ads from pontiac about their participation in NHRA Pro Stock with WJ and others crack me up. Do those market people at pmd think that their ads are selling grand ams in the show rooms? They are wasting their money on those ads. Then they drop the Firebird and decide to bring back the GTO as a foriegn car. How more humiliating to us can they be?
On REAL Pontiacs. If you change the cam to an aftermarket one is it still a Pontiac? Damn right it is! Same goes for ANY other component you change, even a block. Why? Because you are still using the basic plans/blueprints from the original design and are making an improvement on an existing part to replace it. This is called development and it is very critical for our out of production (for 20 odd years) engine. This applies to cams, intakes, timing chains and, yes, even blocks and heads. Sure, it isn't factory anymore but, who cares? The factory obviously doesn't so, what do we do? Let the motor die by using up whatever parts are left? After decades of aftermarket development by the other brands, I am thrilled to see people/companies putting in time and money into the engine design that I love so much. Anytime a new component comes out that is designed to fit a Real Pontiac it is a blessing for us all. This is because , whether you use that particular part or not, it "waterfalls" to other potential ideas for componants for our engine. It further improves or potentially improves the design. Hey, the people at GM (or Pontiac division, whoever is/was responsible) gave up on the design but, that doesn't mean it is dead. Far from it. Again, I applaud companies like Edelbrock, Wenzler, IA, BOP and others who put time and money into developing good, quality parts for the engine design that is so near and dear to my heart!
That is what a Pontiac is, our motor with parts to fit our motor. God bless them and I hope more companies will do the same. I am even planning to make available some competition parts for REAL Pontiac engines after more testing is done. One goal of mine is to have a REAL Pontiac that is faster than any corporate powered anything and it is not a dream, it is closer than anyone may think. More?
www.pontiacheaven.org
A REAL Pontiac site for REAL Pontiac people!
and remember......REAL Pontiacs ONLY! NO corporate nonsense! I invite all REAL Pontiac fans to my event- "Pontiac Heaven Drags & More V" coming to Phoenix in April.
Proud to be a REAL Pontiac man.
Steve Barcak

[Dick Duclow]

Obviously, I'm prejudiced, but I couldn't agree more!

[iron man]

Well spoken, well said.

[WARPed]

Amen brother. If I wanted a chebie motor I would get the chebie car…. And some of our true blue (red?) Indian friends are correcting that problem by installing real Pontiacs in 82 & up Firebirds & 78-87 Grand Prix. Indian Adventures is working on a kit to do just that for the Firebirds and already offers real headers for the 78-87 GPs and 78-81 Lemans in both D & Round port.

with out questions there can be no answers

1969 Grand Prix
[email protected](1.358)
[email protected](1.342)
WARPed Tepee Forums
[email protected]

[Rick Lightfoot]

Well said Steve.

[Jim Yanoski]

Steve and others!! Don't take what I said the wrong way!! Please!! People that know me, would say I am a hardcore, die hard Pontiac guy!! I simply asked a question and wanted to see what a few others thought. You were the only person to respond without being degrating, and actually answering with your true thoughts about the question. - - --- Believe me, I know the difference !!
I was merely venting a little after I asked a simlple question(How much HP are you looking to make?) and was jumped for the combination I currently run! Nowhere in the post did I say anything about my peformance!
Nowhere did I say there is no place for IA, nor did I bad mouth anyone that is or is about to run one.

I agree it a great thing that the aftermarket is booming with new Parts for a Pontiac and hope to see more! I would like to see an aluminum block one day! More economical pricing on all parts would also be nice to see!
I simply stated that they are not for me right at this time, but who knows???????? " If you can't beat them, join them" !!!

Well anyway, good luck on your event, I hope it is a success!!

D-ports ROCK !!

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"pontiac in the 80s started designing parts to fit a cheby block. Because of this, pontiac lost its identity and many new car customers (myself included). Do you know how much the cheby boys chuckle about this? To the bow tie gang, pontiac changed to making cheby parts because the original (real) Pontiac engine was, in their mind, junk. Nothing is more degrading than seeing "pontiac" on a cheby engine such as prostock, etc."

I remember things a little differently. I kind of
remember FORD kicking Chebbys BUTT with their
IHRA motors and Chebby trying like mad to develop a high flow head for their "pig" blocks.

I remember a bunch of Pontiac guys going to a
little company in Texas called BRODEX (who made
very good heads for RMS for their Chebby engines)
and "seeing the light" said we will embarrass the
he** out of Chebby by offering a head that will
outperform their best engineers stuff. So they
bought the heads from BRODEX, slapped a pontiac
part number on the heads, and proceeded to open
up a can of "Whup A$$" in racing.

My point is Pontiac CHOSE to make the conversion
to the aftermarket BB Chebby and SB Chebby parts.
When they saw how good they worked they told
Chebby, "we will buy your block and put our stuff
on the engines"

Oldsmobile also "saw the light" and went to Batten
for cylinder heads.

It grew to cylinder blocks and intakes and other
race parts. For a while, you had Chebby, Pontiac,
and Olds all making race parts and competing with each other on who did the best engineering (buying
aftermarket race parts with engineering money for
"research" purposes).

Chebby eventually forced OLDS and PONTIAC out of
the game when they said WE will build the only V8,
Buick will build the only V6, and Pontiac will build the Iron Duke 4 cylinder.

Pontiac dirtied the waters when they urinated in
their own backyard in a pi$$ing contest with
Chebby and lost. No one to blame but pontiac.

Tom V.

[Goatman]

The RAIV head was developed in conjunction with Air Flow Research from what I read.

Hey, a Pontiac head with the superior properties of a BB Chevy block and oiling system..... Great idea at the time.

Now we have IA to thank!

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[b-man]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatman:
The RAIV head was developed in conjunction with Air Flow Research from what I read. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read the 455 SD heads were developed by AFR, never heard of the RAIV heads being developed by them. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Let's go racing!
www.outlawpontiacs.com/members/B-Man2.php
www.outlawpontiacs.com/members/B-Man.php

[Goatman]

I read that a while back in some magazine, but, of course, the CRS has kicked in and now I can't remember which one.

It would be logical to assume that since the IV heads were first, Pontiac would have just used the experiences gleaned on those heads on the SD heads.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Steve Barcak]

Tom, as you say, you remember it different. Can you date what you claim? I remember it was about 1984-5 when the pontiac corporate bb head came out. I remember it that way because I was the newsletter editor for the Az Pontiac club at the time in 1985 and I did a story on it. It was very rare to have a critical editorial towards pmd in a Pontiac club publication at that time but, I call 'em like I see 'em. You state-
"Chebby eventually forced OLDS and PONTIAC out of
the game when they said WE will build the only V8,
Buick will build the only V6, and Pontiac will build the Iron Duke 4 cylinder."
"Eventually"? This happened BEFORE the corporate head development and release, not after it as you state. It was probably around 1978-80 when Pontiac got the word that they would not be able to build a V-8 anymore after the 1981 model year. The "duke" came out in '77(?). I heard about the demise of Pontiac V-8 production from the well liked H-O newsletter "High Output" about summer 1980. At that time, I couldn't believe it. Whether the decision to can the Real Pontiac V-8 was a decision from Pontiac division or the the GM Corporation I do not know. Either way, we got a raw deal and Pontiac lost a lot of loyal customers. Say no? Look at 1982, 3 and 1984 production numbers. Who likes those years? Pmd further turned on the Pontiac loyalists at that time by dropping parts from the books and by starting to develop parts to fit cheby engines instead. All those years from Knudson onward to Change Pontiacs image and to develop our great engine went down the drain. What a waste. I know they did release a handfull of part numbers (like 455SD rods) but, with the price they were asking, they did not really want to sell any did they? Look what cheby, Ford and Chrysler has done for the musclecar generation in parts ( the reissue of the HEMI as an example). How about Pontiac? How about something from the company that was put into the #3 sales spot with that great Pontiac V-8 leading the way? Well? We get NOTHING! pmd uses retro ads and now even is bringing back the GTO as a foreign car to help bring back the feeling on the musclecar days when they were #3. But, it is not the same. The Ford guys have their heritage and can proudly buy a new Ford product. But, a Pontiac hasn't been a Pontiac since 1981 (and even earlier in some instances too).
Few will agree with me on this issue but, the 301-265 was a good engine for the times. It was light, had good low end torque and got decent mileage. If that engine would have continued in production, the tooling would have survived too and there would have been a lot more development for the real Pontiac V-8 to benefit us all. A better, stronger performance version of the 301 would have followed and Ford would have their hands full competing with 100's of thousands of 5 litre (301) REAL Pontiacs on the road that could have been built in the last 20 years! We would be proud of Pontiac and I would be driving a late model. But, no. Oh well, so much for monday quarterbacking.
On the alum block issue. For those who don't know. I've just finished my new nostalgia front motor blown, injected nitro fueler (AA/FD). I am ready to start testing and licensing too. I'm using a '59 block to start because they are the strongest, most available for a blown nitro application. But, an aluminum block is really needed for serious blown nitro use. Fuel blocks have removable cylinder liners and can easily be repaired when a componant fails and put a crack or hole in the block. Aluminum also "gives" flexes and in exremly high horsepower situations, alum simply works better. I did buy an unmachined,raw factory alum Ram Air V block from Tom s who posts on this board. With the blueprints, I have made good progress on machining this block. A few friends and I have built tools and jigs to machine a Pontiac block from scratch. I have also learned quite a bit on machining the last few years. The alum V block will be set up as a fuel (nitro use for those who don't know what "fuel" refers to) block with liners and has been fitted with one of my 6 bolt main lower girdle assemblies. It will also be reinforced in critical areas. This is my plan to go well into the sixes and, hopefully, into the fives at arourn 250MPH. Cars in this class run 4.4 inches per pound and are restricted with 12"(!) tires, no tranmissions are allowed (direct drive only) and can only use a 6-71 blower, no larger. there are also restrictions on fuel pump size and magneto type too. I realize this block will not last forever, it is also very rare but, you need good parts if you are to compete head to head against chev and Hemis. A Real Pontiac top fueler has not been sucessful in about 40 years. Top Fuel, even in nostalgia racing are the "Kings of the sport" and it would be quite an accomplishment to have a competitive Real Pontiac in this class, not just build a fast Pontiac but, to have a fast Real Pontiac to compete with head to head.
An aluminum Real Pontiac V-8 billet block is what I will need to race in this top fuel class for any length of time. I will pursue building one after the Ram Air V block is finished. Hopefully, that is this next year. If some else wants to make one, let me know, you may have a customer. The block issue is another reason I choose to hold off running the M/T Hemi stuff because the high ported Super Cheifs I built will make more than enough power for the iron blocks I have.
On my events. "Pontiac Heaven Drags & More" is only for real Pontiac powered vehicles. I stand alone in not allowing corporate powered pontiacs to attend a vintage Pontiac event. The attendance numbers that would be added by allowing the late models in is not worth it to me. I have an event for Real Pontiacs because it is what I believe in. I promote the use, interest and knowledge in Real Pontiac V-8s. I also pay tribute to the fine history that Pontiac once was and this is the best way I know how. This next event will also be featured in High Performance Pontiac magazine too. After trying to get Pontiac enthusiast to do a feature, they flat out refused to do so because I don't allow corporate (cheby) stuff at my events. Yes, the so called hard core pontiac guys at PE as they are called here are not so hard core, are they? They run stories on Firebird/Trans Am only events and they run stories on GTO/a body only events but, they won't run a story on someone who puts in a LOT of effort into a REAL vintage Pontiac event with racing, swap meet and a show. There are no other big Pontiac events in the west and they purposely choose to ignore it. Sure, they can do what the wish, it is their mag. But, they do mislead you to think they promote all aspects of Pontiac performance and they deliberatley do not. My forth event earlier this year had 600 attend with over 100 Pontiacs participating. Each event grows. The track, Speedworld Motorplex, is wonderful, nostalgic and preppared very well. Many racers run their best ETs there. I personally welcome everyone who decides to attend, you won't be dissapionted. For all you hard core Pontiac fans out there- The PE corporate BS may be something to think about when it is time to renew your subscriptions.
Real Pontiacs only!.......NO Corporate Nonsense!
Steve Barcak

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on December 23, 2002 at 03:19 PM.]

[This message was edited by Steve Barcak on December 23, 2002 at 03:46 PM.]

[Bruce Meyer]

Right On Steve! See you at Speedworld.

[Rick Lightfoot]

The 151 Pontiac Iron Duke debuted in '77.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Steve, Interesting. How are you going to address the strength and stress issue around the lower cylinder and mains with an aluminum block? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]
Personally I don't see it handling hp figures in the 1400 hp and up range.
Unless it is a solid filled block and still I see a magnitude of stress related problems. There's just not enought meat (given the bore spacing) for support, no matter what ya do.

I built a 572 cu.in Pontiac motor for a customer and the only thing on the "Whole" engine that was pure Factory Pontiac was the timing cover and had to modify the H*ll out of it for a chain assembly in a IA tall deck block.

But is it still a Pontiac?.......Damn Skippy it is!!!. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

BTW: I still have the tall deck Double Roller timing sets "In Stock"

Build it fast, build it right, build a Pontiac.
http://PontiacDude.cc

[Tom Vaught]

Steve,

After the holidays I will call Brodix and get the
exact date that Brodix first made the -6 head for the SB Chevy with the Pontiac part number. The
BB Chevy head came after that. You say 1983. If the SB work was done before that time period, then
we can assume at least a year as they only put
out their performance catalogs once a year (like
Ford). I am saying 1981 when the turbo 301 was
performing so poorly as the date. Tom V.



IMG]http://kurtsplates.homestead.com/files/UR2SLO.jpg[/IMG]

[Tom Vaught]

Venting over, withdrew my post. Tom V.


[This message was edited by Tom Vaught on December 23, 2002 at 10:11 PM.]

[Jim Yanoski]

I hope everybody, including me, is done venting Tom! Lets have a happy holidays and get back to building, racing, and restoring our Pontiacs!!

It's gonna be a long winter!!

Happy holidays to all!! See ya at the races next year!!

D-ports ROCK !!

[Bad-Goat]

Steve, I couldn't agree any more with you, I just canceled my subscription to PE. My feelings their trying to control what we read.

[Tripower455]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Because of this, pontiac lost its identity and many new car customers (myself included). Do you know how much the cheby boys chuckle about this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I always laugh at the "if Pontiac (Olds, BUick) was so good, then why is Chevy the only one left" argument.

It's because it's the CHEAPEST of all the GM V-8s to manufacture that still has an acceptable level of performance/durability. Also, getting EPA certification on a bunch of different similar sized/performance engines didn't make sense.

Most people do not know the difference between a 350P and a sbc 350. Price is THE reason that Chevy outsold all the other GM marques over the years.

To most, a Chevelle was the same as the GTO (or LeMans etc) but cheaper. Most folks don't realize that the reason the other GM marques were more expensive were that they had higher quality engines, drivelines, interiors etc. as STANDARD equipment. How many GTO's had Saginaw 4 speeds or C-clip rears (except the later 12 bolt)? For every BBC Chevelle made, there had to be 2000 small block Chevelles...

JUst pull apart a standard GTO/Firebird engine and compare it to the standard Chevelle/Camaro small block in internal dimensions and features. Half of the stuff that you need to do to a SBC to survive moderate H levels is already built in to the Ponchos. How many 2 bolt main SBC can hold up to 500 hp?

The BBC engine is a different beast though, but afaik, was not standard on any Chevy A body

Today it is a similar situation with Chevy vs the rest of GM stuff, only the drivelines are the same. You just get more stuff standard with the BOP cars than with the Chevys, where everything is an option. When I bought my '01 Formula, I priced out Z-28's with the same options, and with identical standard Pontiac stuff, the "cheaper" Z-28 actually cost about $1K more!



"I open up three deuces, I'm Never Coming Back!" http://www.tripower455.com