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Goatman · 07-19-2002, 06:45 PM

Happend on the dyno last night.

Made three half pulls from 4400-6100 RPM. The first two didn't go so well, as there were timing and jet issues. Not out of the ordinary by any means. Third pull I made 630 HP at 6100 RPM. VE's were all above 105%, with a max of 109%. Very nice numbers for any pull. We start the motor up again and no oil pressure...........

We figure something happended to the oil pump. We take the motor off the stand and bring it back to the shop. I spent the day today performing what turned out to be an autopsy.

What happend?

A piece of the timing cover broke off, fell into the timing chain (as near as I can figure it) and then proceded to get sucked ou into the pump and through the bearings, wiping out the #5 rod bearing and scuffing two pistons and cylinders. There were some minor damage to the other bearings, but the crank looks fine on all except #5.

A piece of the timing cover?

If you flip over a timing cover, so that you are looking at it the way a timing chain would, you will see two small indentations that are threaded hols for the bottom two water pump bolts. One of these indentations broke off, so you could see the bolt threaded in the hole. Freak occurence, no one to blame, it just happened. No way to catch something like that. Who would look before now!

Next move?

I'm done for this year. I don't even want to look at my car right now. Worst part is I have to drop it off at the paint booth tomorrow. Anyway, I'm not real sure what I'm going to do. The crank can be reused (but need .030" on the rods) and so can the rods (they are fine, with brand new ARP bolts), the cam and heads are also fine. The block will probably need to be sleeved to be useable, as it is already .060". The heads are perfect as well.

Most of thses parts will be for sale shortly I think. I can deliver them to Norwalk, as I think I will vacation there this year. I'm going to have them checked out and the crank turned, then I will post in the for sale section. The heads will probably go straight to E-bay, as will anything that doesn't sell by Norwalk.

I hope that some of you get luckier than I was this year. Its sucked from beginning to end.

Goatman · 07-19-2002, 06:45 PM

Happend on the dyno last night.

Made three half pulls from 4400-6100 RPM. The first two didn't go so well, as there were timing and jet issues. Not out of the ordinary by any means. Third pull I made 630 HP at 6100 RPM. VE's were all above 105%, with a max of 109%. Very nice numbers for any pull. We start the motor up again and no oil pressure...........

We figure something happended to the oil pump. We take the motor off the stand and bring it back to the shop. I spent the day today performing what turned out to be an autopsy.

What happend?

A piece of the timing cover broke off, fell into the timing chain (as near as I can figure it) and then proceded to get sucked ou into the pump and through the bearings, wiping out the #5 rod bearing and scuffing two pistons and cylinders. There were some minor damage to the other bearings, but the crank looks fine on all except #5.

A piece of the timing cover?

If you flip over a timing cover, so that you are looking at it the way a timing chain would, you will see two small indentations that are threaded hols for the bottom two water pump bolts. One of these indentations broke off, so you could see the bolt threaded in the hole. Freak occurence, no one to blame, it just happened. No way to catch something like that. Who would look before now!

Next move?

I'm done for this year. I don't even want to look at my car right now. Worst part is I have to drop it off at the paint booth tomorrow. Anyway, I'm not real sure what I'm going to do. The crank can be reused (but need .030" on the rods) and so can the rods (they are fine, with brand new ARP bolts), the cam and heads are also fine. The block will probably need to be sleeved to be useable, as it is already .060". The heads are perfect as well.

Most of thses parts will be for sale shortly I think. I can deliver them to Norwalk, as I think I will vacation there this year. I'm going to have them checked out and the crank turned, then I will post in the for sale section. The heads will probably go straight to E-bay, as will anything that doesn't sell by Norwalk.

I hope that some of you get luckier than I was this year. Its sucked from beginning to end.

Ken MacNicol · 07-19-2002, 07:04 PM

Thats to bad Goatman, I know how you must feel because I just broke one last Saturday. I can not tell what broke first[rod broke in middle,different rod broken bolt,block cracked, one main cap broke, and oil pump shaft broke] I was planning on racing in West Virginia this week and Michigan next week but I guess I won't make it.

larry davis · 07-19-2002, 08:16 PM

That sucks hard!

Why ya' selling your stuff Bruce? Going in a different direction? Do the machining/repair work & get back after it dude.

I'll be checking out my timing cover when I get home!

Goatman · 07-19-2002, 08:22 PM

Larry, its time for the Tall Deck to come out and play...................

No more stock timing covers or stock blocks for this kid.

Robert Williams · 07-19-2002, 08:36 PM

Goatman, sorry about your new engine. These things happen and can be a huge setback. This hobby is very expensive and you have to really love it to keep going.

cpetrice · 07-19-2002, 08:51 PM

sorry again goatman....

Ron · 07-19-2002, 08:55 PM

Sorry to hear it. BUMMMMMMMMMMMER big time!!!

I've just started a new engine and I will also be looking at my timing covers. I have two that are brand new in the PMD box.

Ron

gtoguy1967 · 07-19-2002, 09:23 PM

sorry to here that! my brother just bought a 331ci for his mustang got it home and was looking into the short block it had the wrong pistons wrong rods he was so bummed. he called the builder to tell him the guy was all over himself he bent over backwards to make it right was very stand up about the whole thing. just keep a good aditude witch it sounds like you are.
Don

retrojoe · 07-19-2002, 10:29 PM

So sorry to hear about your engine. It does take some wind out of your sails when stuff like this happens. Have several cold ones and regroup yourself and do your best to start over. Good things will happen. Best of luck!

68grandprix · 07-19-2002, 10:31 PM

Sorry to hear that. I would be pissed if I put that much money into an engine that was that powerful and then have it get ruined. Last week my engine blew up. As far as I can tell now I've got two broken rods, at least one broken piston, four of the cylinder bores are ruined, broken dist drive gear, wrecked cam. I can't afford a new engine and can't even find a used Pontiac engine out here. I just need one that will last a month so I can get to work. Hope you have better luck.

Robert Williams · 07-19-2002, 11:56 PM

Goatman, just thinking, what made the casting (boss) fall off the timing cover? The bolt was too long and cracked the boss. Not saying that you did it, but being a used timing cover it could have happend anytime in the last 30 years. It was cracked and you just didn't know it, but until now who ever checked for that. I guess this tells us all to check all (USED TIMING COVERS FOR CRACKS). It never ends, after 30 years of this i am still learning. OK everyone check all bolt lengths and if too long, things get cracked and broken. An example i have two 1971, 455 blocks sitting in front of me. The factory motor mount bkt to block bolts fit fine on one block but they bottom out on the other block. Also one of the blocks is drilled and tapped for four bolt mains and the other block is drilled and tapped four two bolt mains, both 71, 455 blocks. The bottom line, check the the bolt lenght.

[ July 20, 2002, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Robert Williams ]

PHILLYGOAT · 07-20-2002, 01:52 AM

Welcome to the "Sometimes Life Sucks Club".
Sorry to hear about your troubles. You know I have already been there and done that. It's only a loss of time, money and joy, so get over it and just build another faster one.

Phil

Will · 07-20-2002, 03:30 AM

That really blows. I haven't had an engine as powerful as yours, but so far my track record isn't much better.

The too-long bolt theory is a good one. Another possibility is that there was some debris in that hole and when the bolt was screwed in it blew the back of the cover out around it.

Good luck with whatever you do next.

Goatman · 07-20-2002, 07:40 AM

The bolt wasn't too long fellas. It was an ARP bolt that had been in that timing cover last year and this year as well. I could see part of the bolt from the back of the timing cover once I removed it and it wasn't even touching the back of the threaded hole. The piece just broke off, it wasn't even the whole boss, just a part of it. About as big as half of my "pinky" finger nail.

Maybe it was the vibrations, maybe old age, maybe a combination of both. We'll never know.

Thanks for the support. Check the for sale section soon for some screamin' deals just in time for Norwalk.

[ July 20, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Goatman ]

Scott Misus · 07-20-2002, 07:41 AM

How could a piece of aluminum get sucked into an oil pump, assuming the pickup screen was in place?

Those Moon timing covers from Spotty are looking better and better all the time.

I suppose someone will start importing Chinese timing covers now.

[ July 20, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Scott Misus ]

Goatman · 07-20-2002, 07:46 AM

Scott, read my first post again, especially the "What happended?" part. Then you need to know what a pickup extension for a Canton pan looks like. The screen has a larger mesh than the stock screen. Its the only thing that Dick, Tom, the dyno operator, or myself can come up with. No other reason for failure like that.

I woudn't go running around buying a big dollar timing cover replacement from anyone. I wouldn't use a used on again, though. $90 for a new GM cover doesn't seem to be that much money all of a sudden...................

[ July 20, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Goatman ]

Bud Lyons · 07-20-2002, 07:55 AM

Bruce, Hind sight is 20-20. Sorry to here about your engine. You still coming to MG?

Scott Misus · 07-20-2002, 08:01 AM

I did read that part. Three times.

I'd still like to know how a piece of aluminum could make it past even-larger-than-stock screen mesh.

Was the piece of aluminum smaller than the holes in the mesh?

What brand/model of oil pump?

Was the breaking of the timing cover caused by mechanical failure or be a design flaw? If it was by design flaw, a new cover isn't going to escape having the same design flaws as a used one.

For those of us with cam-driven fuel pumps in the plans, the Moon cover is a decent alternative to block-mounted, belt-driven alternatives.

[ July 20, 2002, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Scott Misus ]

Mr_GTO · 07-20-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

A piece of the timing cover broke off, fell into the timing chain (as near as I can figure it) and then proceded to get sucked ou into the pump and through the bearings, wiping out the #5 rod bearing and scuffing two pistons and cylinders. There were some minor damage to the other bearings, but the crank looks fine on all except #5.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, last time I checked,when a piece of aluminum gets sucked through a chain and gears spinningn at 6500rpm, what usually results is TINY pieces of aluminum. Those get sucked into the pump and into the bearings.

Elementary my dear Watson.

[ July 20, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: FFCC ]

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