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Cliff R · 01-05-2003, 04:12 AM

With all the discussions about q-jets thought I'd throw this topic in. In the past few years we've been seeing an increasing number of restamped "high performance" q-jet carbs showing up on E-bay and for sale and at some of the big swap meets. The level of expertise varies considerably from pathetic to very good. In the photo are two restamped q-jets. The carb on the right is what one of my customers got back after sending his original 69 270 carb to a prominent Pontiac engine rebuilder on the West Coast. His original 69 270 carb was replaced with this restamped 1968 262 carb. The carb on the left is one that I quickly removed the original numbers from and crudely hand stamped for the photo session. The entire process only took about 5 minutes.

Considering that a correctly numbered "original" Pontiac HP q-jet will bring near $2000, we're probably going to see more and more restamping and the old "switch-a-roo" when you send your carb out for correct restoration or performance work.

It all boils down to $$. The temptation to take your original carb and sell it for BIG $$ while substituting a nicely restamped unit and making good money on the other end will no doubt have this sort of behavior continuing. I still continue to see 270 and 273 carbs at nearly every Pontiac swap meet. These cleverly restamped units are usually in the $200 to $500 range asking price for nothing more than a 262/263. Pretty good profit margin for a few minutes work.

To finish the stamping process on the carb in the photo all that is needed is a quick "etching" with muratic acid and a few minutes in the bead blaster. Once correctly plated few would be able to tell it wasn't an original.....Cliff

Cliff R · 01-05-2003, 04:12 AM

With all the discussions about q-jets thought I'd throw this topic in. In the past few years we've been seeing an increasing number of restamped "high performance" q-jet carbs showing up on E-bay and for sale and at some of the big swap meets. The level of expertise varies considerably from pathetic to very good. In the photo are two restamped q-jets. The carb on the right is what one of my customers got back after sending his original 69 270 carb to a prominent Pontiac engine rebuilder on the West Coast. His original 69 270 carb was replaced with this restamped 1968 262 carb. The carb on the left is one that I quickly removed the original numbers from and crudely hand stamped for the photo session. The entire process only took about 5 minutes.

Considering that a correctly numbered "original" Pontiac HP q-jet will bring near $2000, we're probably going to see more and more restamping and the old "switch-a-roo" when you send your carb out for correct restoration or performance work.

It all boils down to $$. The temptation to take your original carb and sell it for BIG $$ while substituting a nicely restamped unit and making good money on the other end will no doubt have this sort of behavior continuing. I still continue to see 270 and 273 carbs at nearly every Pontiac swap meet. These cleverly restamped units are usually in the $200 to $500 range asking price for nothing more than a 262/263. Pretty good profit margin for a few minutes work.

To finish the stamping process on the carb in the photo all that is needed is a quick "etching" with muratic acid and a few minutes in the bead blaster. Once correctly plated few would be able to tell it wasn't an original.....Cliff

carbking · 01-05-2003, 07:47 AM

One of the best ways to guard against restamps is to locate the build sheet that came with your car.

An original Rochester 1967 and newer; in addition to the 7 (or later 8) digit part number, will be stamped with a two character plant code. This plant code is similar to the two character plant code stamped on the left front of the engine block.

The plant code for each assessory (including the carburetor) for your car is included on the build sheet.

As far as I know, no one has yet tried to publish a listing of the plant codes for carburetors; so the restampers would have to figure that out and the information is hard to come by. We have been offered a pretty decent sum to sell our list, but this is one of the last defenses against the restamper, and we won't sell or publish it.

Service dated carburetors will not have plant codes. As an example, the 7029270 (1969 RAIV) had a plant code on the carburetors made during the 1969 production year. This carburetor was continued to be produced as a service replacement for both automatic and standard transmission (the 7029273 was discontinued). I have seen service dates as new as 1976. The service dated units have no plant code.

Another item to look for is whether the carburetor was made by Rochester or Carter. Most are aware that GM sub-contracted through Carter to build millions of Q-Jet carburetors. The carburetors are identical within part number. However, there was an "economy of scale" price that was charged to GM for each unit. As the H.O. and RA carbs were made in much less quantity the price would have been higher per unit; therefore after 1967, no H.O. or RA Q-Jets were produced by Carter . Carter did produce RA Q-Jets in 1967.

There are other subtle differences in the Q-Jets. If you are in the market for one, study what you see on show cars at national car shows. Most restampers, as Cliff mentioned, are in it for the money. Research requires too much effort!

One other item. A RA or H.O. carburetor that was restored with paint is at least suspect. The paint is going to lose points at a points-judging show, so why would a restorer restore an original using paint, when he knows it would have to be redone to be used for show?

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

Cliff R · 01-05-2003, 09:31 AM

As always Jon, excellent information!.......Cliff

johnta1 · 01-05-2003, 10:19 AM

So,would Scot Tieman consider this alright for his restorations also?

johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com

JKGTO · 01-05-2003, 01:16 PM

YEAH SCOTT WOULD AS RESTAMPING BLOCKS SEEMS TO BE OK ALSO.

Held for Ransom · 01-05-2003, 01:37 PM

The real question is, who can be trusted to restore a Ram Air carburetor? Do you do it Jon, or just sell correct kits? Cliff and/or Jon, do you guys do the replating yourselves or farm it out? And how much more is charged to make sure you get back what you sent?

carbking · 01-05-2003, 01:50 PM

We sublet the plating, coloration, etc.; but to metal laundry companies we have used for many years. At 500 or so carbs a year, there is absolutely no way we could justify the cost of a plating operation. More employees, another building, government inspections, waste water treatment, etc., etc., etc. no thank you.

As to how does an individual know that they will get back what they send? I don't have an answer to that one. In our case you always will unless you tell us differently.

Held for ransom - yes, we do restorations, but at this time so far behind we aren't accepting new ones. Hopefully, by this time next year we again will be.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

carbking · 01-05-2003, 02:39 PM

Actually, there is a way to guarantee you will get back your original - stamp your name into the casting!!

We actually received a pair of Cadillac dual quads used on an Allard race car from a restoration shop in Florida that the mechanic had stamped the underside of the bowl with an "F" and an "R". He stamped them hard enough that he cracked both bowls!!! Yes, he did get them back, just the way they were sent, broken. Two ruined rare carburetors. I guess this was the only way the mechanic could tell the front from the rear!

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

Cliff R · 01-05-2003, 04:37 PM

I offer plating here, like Jon I farm it out. I am not in the "restoration" business but take in a few here and there. The vast majority of my work is performance oriented. I will also take in "trouble" carbs, usually from folks who cannot get them to pass emissions (have had outstanding success with this). Beleive it or not some states still test cars that are 30 years old! I also rebush baseplates, straighten airhorns and sell a few parts. Most of the time I'm at least 2-3 months behind and quite taking orders when I hit about 6 months. No sense in having a bunch of carbs sitting around and folks waiting when I can't get to them. Compared to Jon's shop, I work on a much smaller scale. Last time I checked I was at 140 carbs for last year. In addition to carb work I prepare a lot of transmissions, all over the counter custom units, about 80 percent are overdrives. CUstom engines are also prepared here, usually about half dozen per year, last year was a banner year, must have built at least a dozen. On top of all this I work a full time job (retiring in 8 months) and race and attend as many car shows, swap meets and cruises as I can get to. Typical days start at 5am, 2 hours on internet, day job till 3:30, in the shop from 4pm till at least 9pm, then at least 2 hours of internet. Work saturdays and sundays when I'm not RACING! I race as often as possible.......Cliff

Trev · 01-05-2003, 04:38 PM

Just more proof that the restoration game is a minefield! Glad I'm a Hot Rodder!

Cliff R · 01-05-2003, 05:03 PM

As far as getting back your original carb, even if you stamp it no guarentee you'll get it back. The carb pictured in the original post was discovered to not be the original months after it was placed in service by the owner. The owner originally hired a Pontiac shop in CA to recalibrate the carb and give it a "high performance" rebuiding to work better with his recent engine changes. The carb he got back performed poorly and was sent back and forth several times at the owner expense. Finally the shop told him his combination was CRAP, the carb was fine, tested perfectly and they were done with him. Wanting a second opinion the carb was sent here. As soon as I opened the package I knew something was wrong, called the owner and told him the bad news, the carb was a 68 262 unit, restamped as indicated in the above photo. It was also cracked in the main body and would not hold fuel despite a futile attempt to seal it up with clear epoxy. It failed the leak test at all 4 bottom plugs and was not suitable for testing. In addition it sported not a single "performance" modification aside from an orange power piston spring and CC secondary rods. At this point the owner had nearly $500 invested in a peice of junk, no doubt his original unit was long gone. The shop owner was contacted, he immediatley dodged all responsibility saying he did not touch them himself, farmed them out to a Carb specialty shop. He did not offer compensation or even a decent core for the original owner. Guess he figured the guy wouldn't drive 3000 miles to confront him or bother with a law suit.

The purpose of this post is not to degrade any shops in CA or anywhere else. Since these carbs have reach a point where anyone coming in contact with them can make considerable profits, the risk of loosing your carb is dramatically increased. I also wanted to emphasize the increasing number of restamped units being offered for sale, I'd be very sceptacle of anything that seems to good to be true, because with Pontiac carbs it probably is.....Cliff

bonneville Joe · 01-05-2003, 05:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trev:
Just more proof that the restoration game is a minefield! Glad I'm a Hot Rodder!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, No sh*t.

Give me a thumbs up, tell me "Nice Car!", but for god's sake, don't call it an Impala.

Lemans1 · 01-05-2003, 06:14 PM

Any chance at getting the name of the place not to send our carbs to?

carbking · 01-05-2003, 06:35 PM

Trev and bonneville Joe - the restoration game is no more nor less a minefield that anything else. Remember the carburetor Cliff is referring to was sent to a shop for performance mods (hot rodding) as well as restoration. The work wasn't performed. Ever unknowing buy some sealed computer software that was enough versions out of date that it couldn't be updated? I have, and from one of the highest profile current companies. How about computer software that unexpectedly expires if you don't update it?

I think the reason Cliff started the thread, and I know the reason I posted, was to make those of you who do not work on carburetors daily aware of some things to look out for.

I certainly wish there had been threads like this concerning computer software years ago. I still won't purchase anything from the company who's software expired.

Jon.

Good carburetion is fuelish hot air.

JKGTO · 01-05-2003, 07:01 PM

I DONT THINK YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SENDING A CARB TO EITHER JON OR CLIFF. JON DID MY 29270 CARB A WHILE AGO. I SENT HIM A PRETTY NASTY LOOKING CARB. WHAT I GOT BACK WAS A WORK OF ART. AND I HAVE HEARD ALL GOOD ABOUT CLIFFS CARBS ALSO. WE ARE FORTUNATE TO HAVE THESE HONEST GUYS ON THIS BOARD TO HELP US WITH OUR CARBURATORS.

78 GHOST · 01-05-2003, 08:10 PM

I think the world of Cliff and Jon, primarily because they both share that common trait. Two hard-working guys who are willing to offer free of charge expert advice and research within their scope of knowledge.

Thanks

____________________________________
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