[Bryan Jensen]

Out of curiousity...since I am building a 461 stroker that will make close to 550 hp...what automatic overdrive transmission can take the abuse of that much power??

Originally had a rebuilt turbo 400, but decided to sell it because I'd rather have the od built in. Got my money back in full from what I paid for it. The turbo 400 is great but here in Cali I just couldn't live with it and my 3.55 gears out back.

I also thought about the gear vendors unit, but for that price I'd rather just get a 4 speed od.

Any thoughts? Some say they can built 700r4's to handle up to 700 hp but I've heard the 700r4 doesn't hold a candle to the 400 in most respects? 4L60E, 4L80???

Will be running electronic EFI so it almost makes sense to be running a computer-controlled one. But I've looked into some places like bowtie overdrives, and they have a 700r4 that can handle my power.

Thanks,
Bryan

[Carl A]

. Stage II 650 HP (+100hp). http://www.ckperformance.com./stg_200R4.html

[Bryan Jensen]

Actually, the only reason why I have a 3.55 in the back in the first place is because 3.55 is the only halfway streetable gear they make for my factory 8.2 BOP 10 bolt rear. The next one up is 3.90

I would have preffered to go with something numerically lower but on the market that's all they have for the time being, and I had no history on my old ones...so it didn't make sense to reuse 30+ year old gears that have who knows what wear on them.

Swapping gears isn't a problem for me, but I'm almost to the point where I'd just rather keep them than have to re-rip apart the rear end, and just run a really good auto od tranny for my 67 gto.

[WARPed]

I went with a 700R4 behind my 550hp motor have been driving it now for over a year with out any issues. It was cheaper to build up the 700R4 at this performance level than the 2004R would cost. Just make sure you get the TV cable system (kit) from bowtieoverdrive at www.700r4.com to avoid the common problems when installing the trans.

[Karch]

Since you are going to need to replace that rearend anyways, just use different gears.

[Shadowjack]

It's pretty much impossible to get rear gears high enough to equal an OD, and you lose it on all the other gears. Better to change the trans. Expensive, but better.

[Skip Fix]

Sometimes 2.75 first gear and a low rear gear can work. My son's 81 with a TH 350 and 3.08s is stil taching close to 3000 @ 70 mph.

[WARPed]

I have a 4.10 with a 28” tire and in overdrive I am seeing around 2500 @ 70mph. It was well worth it too me.

[Bryan Jensen]

Yeah, without a doubt...

I'm still not really hearing any opinions about the pros/cons of the 700r4...

...what does everyone think of that tranny overall??

Karch, what do you mean by replacing the rear end??? Mine is all high perf. rebuilt, with rear disc and moser custom axles...and an eaton posi with richmond gears. Why would I need to replace it? I am confused

Bryan

[Karch]

Originally Posted by Bryan Jensen

Yeah, without a doubt...

I'm still not really hearing any opinions about the pros/cons of the 700r4...

...what does everyone think of that tranny overall??

Karch, what do you mean by replacing the rear end??? Mine is all high perf. rebuilt, with rear disc and moser custom axles...and an eaton posi with richmond gears. Why would I need to replace it? I am confused

Bryan

Bryan, I have seen how you have changed your intentions from a nice all-around 400 to a efi 455, and now you want O.D.

First of all, I love the combo, and I am working toward that as well. I am always slowed down with 2 little ones, a mortgage through the roof (pun intended) and all the other stuff.

But, you are going to get a taste of power, and speed. Then you will be frustrated, especially so close to the track, that you can't get traction.

Let me tell you a dirty little secret. Standard radial tires, not racing ones, are your 8.2's best friend. You will fry those tires from any speed under 50 mph when you mash that throttle.

That being said, you, like most, will say, this is ridiculous (sp?...I'm tired)!
I am going to put on a set of ET Streets, or ET Radials, or whatever, and kills those camaros, mustangs, etc, and really run.

So, hopefully, you get to the track, and that 2.75 first gear in your $2500 Art Carr (in Huntington Beach) 200R-4 trans comes up on the convertor and, here we go again...spin. Then you learn to roll out a bit, and a couple seconds later, with your MAP sensor reading about 95 kPa, and your tach just passing 5500, you reach for 2nd, nice jump forward, and BAM! You just closed the track for the afternoon.

The good news is it's a cheap tow 'cause you live so close, and hopefully you got the car to stop safely.

The bad news is that you need to drop some $2K on the rearend you should have purchased after you decided to put the big dog (stroker crank) in.

Now you are wondering what gears I should go with, and perhaps an upgrade to the driveshaft...it never ends.

There are usually 2 types of people in this hobby, if they can afford either. The first, and more rare, and usually older, has their plan in place on what to do with a car, goes about it, and is most satisfied when the project is completed to their satisfaction. This type rarely deviates from "the plan".

The other, more common, and probably me as well, is always changing and searching, never resting, constantly looking to improve or go faster. This can get very expensive, and unfortunately, there is often a lot more down time.

I haven't even got my 65 where I want it to be and I am planning out my 69 firebird major modified resto.

FYI, we are looking at getting some crank trigger wheels custom made to work with EDIS ignition for full computer control of advance here in the near future.

Oh, btw, I think I failed to answer your question. Power, once applied, will find the weak link. Sounds like you have some good parts in that rearend. Unfortunately, the ring gear diameter is still 8.2", and the pinion gear is mated to that. That's a lot of torque applied to that pinion. I don't see it living to long when you get some good 60' times.

That's just my take. If I had to do it over again, I would dump my 12 bolt and get something better. But, truth is, I don't drive the car much. I think about racing it but can't see to get to the track, and I have so little $$ in the rearend (rebuilt and all) and a laundry list of other things to do that I am just waiting it out.

Karch (just opinions here, anyone can feel free to differ - no harm, no foul).

[Formulabruce]

I have a stage 3 2004R / 455 infront. looked at a few before I made the decision. .67 OD is hard to beat and depending on its orginal application, you can get slightly different first gear. As has been said, youll need to make sure the TV is adjusted correctly.
Im not a racer and Im in category 1, was in the "plan" I run 3.42:1 psi disc rear, and plan on 14 miles to the gallon too

[Cliff R]

The 1987-up 700-R4's (4L60's) are excellent transmissions. They require few internal upgrades and end up costing quite a bit less than a comparable 200-4R. The biggest downside to the 4L60's are the 3.06 first gear and Chevy bellhousing. They are also longer than the 200's by several inches. Running a 3.55 rear gear with a 4L60 is about the same as having 4.56's with a TH400. Talk about making a 455 hard to hold on the starting line!

The 200's have a good following, I've seen them rated to 850hp, but only by those charging BIG bucks for them. We consider them solid to at least 450hp, and OK to about 500hp. Beyond that, perfect starting line traction will quickly find the "weak" spots.

We've been building transmissions here for several decades, and typically avoid the OD's for SERIOUS high torque applications. GN's running into the 11's KILL the 200's in short order, even well prepared units. If they get two seasons out of one, that's WAY outside the "norm".

A retrofitted unit stands a better chance of survival, especially if converted to a non L/U torque converter. The torque converters are another potential failure point, and when the break they take the whole trans with them.

We ran a 4L60 in our 67 Imapla SS for many years. The only thing we broke was the converter, a "high performance" lock-up variety. It broke on the very first full throttle blast with our new engine 327cid, about 350hp. It was replaced (and the entire trans rebuilt) with a custom non L/U unit from Precision Industries, which ran perfectly for about 35,000 miles and COUNTLESS full throttle blasts, until we sold the car.

Brian, since you are considering EFI, which costs about as much as a good 455 engine, the 4L80 may be the best route? They are a pretty heavy and power robbing part, and require electronics for all upshifts, but are a very durable unit. Basically they are a TH400 up to the center support (with significant upgrades), tough as nails and you get OD as well.....Cliff

[RR67GTO]

Originally Posted by Bryan Jensen

Actually, the only reason why I have a 3.55 in the back in the first place is because 3.55 is the only halfway streetable gear they make for my factory 8.2 BOP 10 bolt rear. The next one up is 3.90

I would have preffered to go with something numerically lower but on the market that's all they have for the time being, and I had no history on my old ones...so it didn't make sense to reuse 30+ year old gears that have who knows what wear on them.

Swapping gears isn't a problem for me, but I'm almost to the point where I'd just rather keep them than have to re-rip apart the rear end, and just run a really good auto od tranny for my 67 gto.

I was facing the same problem. Then, pulled a BOP 8.5" corporate rear end. Bought a set of 3.23s and used the stock posi from a later Chevy Burb front axle. Took it all to a great shop that does nothing but rear ends, and they put it all together. I also have one for a F body never been mounted or run. Same gears and same shop did it. But new Eaton and for an F body. Nice combanation.

[Rugratman]

I second the 8.5 rear. Very tough rear, and bolt in axels. Will bolt right into your car.

Bryan, with the tires spinning the rear will be fine. It's when they catch on slick's is when the weakest link comes into play. It's really on the track, not on the street.
The stroker will make a lower RPM torque, so run a lower gear. My car is 525 HP, 560 tq. I had a 8.5 rear built, 3.42 gears. Fast as snot, at 70 MPH, I turn about 2600 rpm.
The formula is actually complicated, as you must take the wheel, and tire size into account too. I also built and burned money, second type, I guess. Build a plan, stick with it. There are some real guru's here, that know bunches. If you race it all the time, then the OD might be useful, screaming down the street, maybe not. The 8.2 will not last under the track condition anyway. No reason to put all that money into a OD tranny with the 8.2, it fail's and it will, gonna cost you big. 8.2 rear is good for the street only.
P.S. I would love to see the pic of that polished timing cover....

[Bryan Jensen]

I'm going to leave me rear alone, for now...it's more than what I need. I'd change it now but I've decided I'm not going to keep trying to go back and upgrade things that are already done, or I'll never get this thing back on the road by May...which is still my goal.

The car is going to be a pro-tourer moreso than a strip car. 99 percent of the time it'll only be street-driven, I want to enjoy it but I've got too much money invested to want to flog it all day. It's not going to be a driver, either. But it's not going to be a garage queen either as well. I'm kind of going into a grey area of our hobby...will be driven and raced but in moderation and not trying to push it hard, so it stays nice for a long time.

So I'm going to use its powerband in moderation, and when appropriate. The speed limit on the highway is 65 miles an hour, and that's as fast as I'll ever go on the street. I don't approve of street racing, and I'm smarter than most young people my age that going fast is only for the track. I have yet to get a ticket for speeding, and I have yet to go past 65.

I'd like to take it to some autocross events when I'm done with it, and mabye the strip once or twice...but that's the extent of this gto. It'll be for show, but it'll never be on a trailer. I plan on driving it to the shows I'm going to take it to and being able to be comfortable in it. I.E. some supportive aftermarket seats, power stuff...anything to keep it what it is and keep it linked to its heritage but get it up to par with modern cars.

When I'm done, my goal is to have a car that looks good, is comfortable to drive on the weekends and weather-permitting...but also have a goat that handles and DRIVES better than any german or import car. I'm in a young generations of BMW's and Hondas, I'd like to show up at an import show or some rice-rocket gathering and show them all how a well-prepped american car can hand it to them any day, both in ride, comfort, and power.. So that's my goal...and that's why I'm going EFI. I need an OD for where I live, to go anywhere fun with the car I'll have to drive at least an hour from here in the desert on our "lovely" traffic bogged highways. So the car without an OD will see somewhere in the 3,100-3,800 from my estimate. Wayyyyy too high for comfort. My mom's tahoe tachs somewhere around 1,700 at 65 on the highway. I'd be happy running low 2k at highway speeds with the gto. The OD is a must for what I want to do.

I guess I'm kind of the oddball in our hobby....Pontiac has my marque for life, and that's all I want to own or drive...but I still like how imports and sports cars can handle and be fun to drive.

I'm a Pontiac ricer, I guess

Bryan

[myckee]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

...GN's running into the 11's KILL the 200's in short order, even well prepared units. If they get two seasons out of one, that's WAY outside the "norm".

I have to disagree with this. This may have been the case a few years ago, but today with the use of superior frictions and mods like dual feeding the directs and a billet forward drum etc., these trans are living in the 9s and 10s without a yearly or bi-yearly rebuild.

I spend a lot of time at the turbobuick forum where many of the top 2004r builders frequent, and the only trans that are failing are the ones not built by a 2004r specialist. Specialists like Chris at CK, Bruce at PTS, Don at DRW, and a whole host of others all who frequent the turbo buick forum. Lost of good discussions there.

[Sicbird]

Good to see somebody else going the pro-touring direction too!

I’m a little doubtful on the 700R4 surviving, but if you keep street tires on it, then you might be okay. I’ve got a friend who ran a race prepped one in his Camaro, but he was running it in the high 10’s with a 4” stroke small block (about 525 hp) with big stickies. He was silly and drove it 2 hours to the track once... Needless to say he didn’t drive home. Definitely stick with the later model 700R4/4L60 style if you get one, they’re built better.

IMO if you’re going pro-touring, I’d lean towards a manual trans. Although it is a bit of extra work and $, rowing gears on a windy road is way fun! Also, you have to research it, because with a manual throwout linkage you could have clearance issues with the starter. For an auto, I’d say the 4L80E would be rock solid and you should never have to worry about what will happen in the unlikely event that you do get a solid launch off the line. Personally, I’m putting a T-56 in my Firebird, but I plan going ridiculously fast with the 0.5:1 sixth gear. Not sure if you want to go quite that extreme…

[OINK 1]

I think the # is 4L80E, run that one, they come out of 1 ton Chevy trucks.
make up an adaptor plate 1/4" thick to pick up those 2 top bolts. then shim back the torque convertor 1/4" ( Grade 8 washers between flex plate and convertor).
There is a place in northern Cali, called Star transmissions ( I Think,Star "something", bt I know it has star in the name), get it from them or level 10 on the east coast.
Run a 2600 stall lock up convertor 3;55's in the back, you'll turn 3200 rpm @ 135 mph.

NEVER had one break.

Pontiac Gregg