[69gtocv]

Finally got the new motor in my Gto fired up today. It had a dry new carb and lines from the tank. I did fill the Qjet through the vent tube but I don't think I had enough in there at first as it wouldn't quite start til I added more gas to the carb. We did have to crank on it many times (less than 5 seconds each time) after that, even though I could tell the carb was squirting gas, probably due to not having the distributor close (stock w/pertronix) before it would fire. We did get it started a couple of times but timing was off so wouldn't bring revs up to 2000, so immediately shut it off. I did have EOS in with the 30 weight oil, so hopefully didn't harm any lobes. After I got the timing closer, it started and got up to 2000, it ran pretty great for about 10 minutes. Of course the paint was burning off the exhaust side of the heads and exhaust manifolds but no weird noises or anything, but then it started getting really warm (according to my rally gauges). Just as I was about to shut it off, a loud metal to metal schreech noise happened. It sounded down low in the engine, almost like two rotating parts rubbing on each other. Kind of a "zhing" sound. Well, I thought it was seizing up so I shut it off. I have a T400 tranny and since I didn't want to have deal with watching the motor and trying to fill the tranny at the same time, I left the torque converter un bolted from the flex-plate. Could the torque converter have walked forward just enough to rub against the flex-plate? After I shut it done, I got underneath and was still able to turn the converter and it didn't sound like it was rubbing, but maybe???
And, after I shut it off, I thought the radiator would be boiling over...nope. Not at all. I used the trick from another post about drilling a couple of relief holes in the thermostat to prevent air pocket. The upper radiator hose was warm, not hot, so I believe the tstat had opened. If I still had the timing too advanced, would it have gotten that hot? I had the vacuum advance connected. Here are a couple of pictures of where the paint burnt off (por15 engine paint guaranteed not to burn off, riiiight). Does it appear it got too hot? Also, when I took the cap off of the radiator, there was some brown sludge floating on top. Picture included. There is no water in the oil at the dip-stick. Rust or something from the block not removed from hot-tanking? Heater core? Should I drain the radiator and put fresh in before trying to run it again? I know I need to run it again for at least another 10 minute or more to finish the break-in process. I have since got a large box fan I'm going to place in front of the radiator before I try this again. I know Pontiacs run warm, but does a new motor breaking in get warmer? Sorry for the rambling, I want get this right before trying again and really hurting something. Jeff

[David Jones]

Looks like rust. A car that has sat as long as your has funks up inside.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Yeah flush it out good, the block will have quite a bit in it from sitting so long with no coolant in it.

The burnt paint is normal, especially if you didnt put alot on it or you have heavily ported heads.

[66bonne]

Yes, newly rebuilt motors will run much hotter during break in, just don't let it over heat.
Did you figure out what the noise was ? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Scarebird]

I would almost lay money your torque convertor crept forward and was hitting. Roll it around and look for strike marks. Not a good idea though to do them separate.

[69gtocv]

My buddy's not coming over til later this afternoon for the second round. I thought about it last night and I think I will bolt up the converter before I start it again. My tranny guy said to put 5 qts of Dextron in first and then as soon as I get it started again, put 3+ more in. But, don't I have to be running through the gears to get the fluid throughout the tranny? I don't want to be doing that as I'm at 2000 rpms breaking the motor in. I suppose I could put the rearend up on stands and let it shift through the gears that way. What do you guys think?

[66bonne]

I think the noise was your convertor if it is not bolted to the flex plate. Yes, there should be some tranny fluid in the convertor before installing. I'm a little confused from your post - is the tranny in the car but the convertor is not bolted up ? That darn sure would make lots of noise. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[69gtocv]

66, yes, tranny is in the car, torque converter is not bolted up to the flex plate yet. The tranny is new and empty at this point. The reason I didn't want to bolt the converter up at first was I didn't want something else to do while breaking in the motor and looking for leaks/noises/etc and have to worry about getting fluid into the tranny at the same time. And I didn't pre-fill the converter before installing it. Is that a problem? I thought my tranny guy said no, just get 5 qts into the pan first, then once the engine and torque converter are spinning, get 3 qts more into it asap. Sound right?

[66bonne]

Got it now. During break-in there are a lot of things to watch for and you want to keep it at a minimum. Your point is well-taken. Is the drive shaft in the car ? If not you would probably have tranny fluid coming out the tail shaft if you had added some.
Not trying to be a wise guy here so take this is the spirit that it was given: By trying to minimize the distractions during break-in you may have actually created one as it sounds like your break-in was going well before the noise.
I'm not a tranny guy so you might want to check with yours but I've always put at least a quart of fluid in the convertor before installation, I'm sure someone told me to do that years ago so I always have, maybe it is not necessary. To me it's kind of like putting fresh oil in the new filter when doing a change.
If the drive shaft is in then I would go ahead and add fluid to the tranny before your next break-in session. Your tranny guy may have told you that it is not necessary to pre-fill the convertor as he may have thought that you would be adding fluid to the tranny before and during break-in.
Good luck and keep us posted.
By the way, I had a bunch of brown gunk in my radiator too shortly after installing a freshly built 455 in my Catalina. I just kept flushing the radiator with the motor running until the water ran clear.

[66bonne]

Post script: At a minimum I would bolt the convertor to the flex plate before your next break-in. Truthfully I don't know whether or not it will harm the convertor if you run it while the convertor is empty.
Again, good luck and keep us posted.

[66bonne]

another PS: No, you do not have to run through the gears to get fluid thru out the tranny, leave it in Park and you'll be fine.

[pontorquer]

You didn't have to run the motor with the trany bolted on, you could of installed the transmission later and support the back of the engine with a concrete block and a plank on top under the oil pan, I've done that before. Pontorquer

[flamedabone]

Only thing I can add is definately put fluid in the tranny if it is going to be attached to the flywheel. It's also a good idea to prefill the converter before sticking it in the tranny. (Try to get a quart in there, might take a while)

Depending on converter size, your tranny should take between 8 and 12 quarts.

One more thing..Paint will burn off in the areas yours did, but it usually takes more than 10 minutes. I would throw a timing light on it immediately upon start up while breaking in the cam.

Too much or too little timing can produce high exhaust temps which will cause the motor to run hot and burn the paint off the exhaust ports.

Ballpark timing is 10-15 initial and 30-36 total. Your motor might like more or less, but that will get you close.

Good luck, -Abone.

[69gtocv]

UPDATE... whew! Well, it must have been the flex-plate zinging the converter. I went ahead and bolted the converter up and put in 5 qts of tranny fluid before we tried starting it again. All is well, no more noises and actually no more smoke from burning paint. But, (and I'm going to start a new thread in the heating/cooling area) I can still only run it for about 4-5 minutes before I start pegging the temp gauge. Again, as many have said, the rally gauges probably aren't the most accurate/reliable ones out there, but I don't dare take the chance that they aren't correct and cook the motor. So, we would run it for like 5 minutes (and I had two big box fans in front of the radiator the whole time), shut it down, it'd take about 20 minutes to cool off, we'd do it all over again. I got three total more sessions in today. So, with yesterday and today, I've probably had it at 2000 rpm a total of 20 minutes. Enough? Abone, the only thing I would be able to tell by sticking a timing light on it while hitting 2000 would be what my total (or close to it at that rpm) advance would be. My balancer isn't degreed, so it'd be a guess only. I need to get it completely broke in, then I can let it idle, plug the vacuum advance and time it. I have no doubt I'm probably off and the mixtures on the carb are what Mark (from OEM carbs) had them set at, so who knows how close they are. Anyway, I feel much better tonight, just gotta get the cooling figured out. I can't thank you guys enough for all the help/advice.

[66bonne]

Way to go !! Sounds like you are getting there but still nothing more tense then firing up a new motor.
If you are still nervous about your temps and the accuracy of your current guage run over to the auto parts store and get a cheap water temp guage. Test the new guage by sticking the probe in boiling water. I don't know what intake you are running but many Pontiac manifolds have two bosses on the water crossover, plug the new guage in the one you're not using at present. This will also help verify the accuracy of your old guage. Again, congrats.

[MAVbird76]

Good job Jeff. Firing up a new engine is stressful enough to give you gray hair. So many things to do and watch for. Hoping everything was done right, and all your dough doesn't wind up becoming a fried 540 pound boat anchor. But it sure feels great to get it past cam run-in, and hear that poncho running like a champ. Congrats!

[Junkyard Dog]

"I did fill the Qjet through the vent tube but . . ."

I can never find a funnel small enough for that!

[Region Warrior]

As 66bonne said, get a water temp gauge.
Even if the temp is ok, you will find out if your factory one is accurate or not.
Was water flowing thru the radiator?
Did the upper hose get firm(pressure)?

[69gtocv]

UPDATE #2...66Bonne, I did go get a water temp gauge and hook it up today. Started the motor up for another round of break-in. This time went 10 minutes and according to the new gauge, it got to about 210 after the 10 minutes and stayed there. Considering it's sitting still, no air movement through the radiator besides the box fans I had and being a tight, new motor, I'm OK with that. And Ponchoshop, good flow and firm upper hose. Least I know my factory gauge is way out of whack. Any way to fix that? I had close to 25-30 minutes total break-in after todays session, so I'm done there. Went ahead and changed the oil/filter. Then started it back up at an idle and checked the timing with the vacuum advance plugged...it had to have been 20-25 degrees retarded!! Suppose that affected my temperatures? Got it timed to about 9 btdc and it sounds sweet! Filled the tranny up to full and all seems good there. No leaks anywhere, which is a miracle. Just need to get the carb adjusted now...and that's for another post I'm afraid. Junkyard Dog, I used a hyperdermic needle to fill up the bowl. Took a while, but no spillage that way. Overall, huge relief and weight off my shoulders. Again, thanks for the advise all.

[66bonne]

Sweeeeeet !! You're looking good. Nice job.