[Geeto 67]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Had a unique expirence over the weekend and I thought I would post it here and see what everybody else thought.

I have a friend with a 1977 Trans Am. Car is a 4 speed car with a non-original 400 in it (built by jasper racing engines) and T-tops. My friend runs an industrial flooring business. Recently he did a floor at a "restoration shop" in New Jersey (I am not giving away the shop name yet as the issue has yet to be resolved). The flooring job cost him $35,000 and usually retails for $40,000. Instead of paying for the job the shop offered to do an equal value amount in bodywork and paint to my friend's car. He dropped the car off hoping to get a decently painted TA.


A couple of weeks ago he gets a call from the shop - aparently they spent 900+ hours on the car and he is looking at a $70K bill thus far. He hits the roof, espically since they didn't call him when they exceeded the original cost of the job - which is what they agreed upon.

So saturday I drive out with him to see what they have done to the car. After 900 supposed hours the car sits as a bare shell with the roof cut off (WTF!!!!!). New floors have been installed and the subframes blasted and painted. Car has all new hardware. All of the mechanical bits have been painted but not rebuilt (the engine recieved new gaskets). The quality of the work done is pretty good - although for the price, the claimed time, and the level to which they took the car apart he should be getting a concours resto and he is not.

All he wanted done was the rear floor patched, the inner left fender patched and the car repainted. The old paint was a decent job but it was cheap and had a lot of drips. He doesn't know a lot about working on cars and will not be able to put it back together himself if he takes it in the condition it has been rendered to. They have gone well beyond the specified job and now he does not even have a complete car. The car has no real sentimental attachment to him, he has no problem letting the shop keep the car, but 1) he can't afford to pay the bill that has been rung up, 2) he never got paid for his floor and he doesn't consider the work done getting paid for the floor because they "destoryed" his car.

Has anybody had a problem like this before? What do you think he should do?

[sharkbite]

Did he get anything in writing, what kind of receipt did he give the shop for the floor? I can't imagine a $70,000 bill for a 77 restore that's not even finished, I mean I wouldn't EVER pay that much, sounds like this could get ugly.

[mike nixon]

get a good lawyer, he'll need it.


mike

[Geeto 67]

Originally Posted by sharkbite

Did he get anything in writing, what kind of receipt did he give the shop for the floor? I can't imagine a $70,000 bill for a 77 restore that's not even finished, I mean I wouldn't EVER pay that much, sounds like this could get ugly.

My friend has unpaid invoices and bills for the floor in writing. The shop owner couldn't produce the work logs or bills when we were there but said he would fax them (his shop manager fell off a ladder and was out and that is why he couldn't find the bills). My friend has yet to recieve one bill or scrap of paper detailing any work on the car since the work began. He also did not recieve a phone call when the work exceeded $35K

The agreement for trading services was all done over the phone, however nobody is disputing that the original agreement was to do the bodywork in exchange for the floor. When we asked the owner why he put his own money into the car he threw up his hands and said "where do you stop on a car like this" (to which we all replied at $35K and you pick up the phone). This is a fairly new shop and I get the feeling they have no idea what they were getting into (i.e. the owner did not realize he needed customer approval to continue to do work once he exceeded the cap or the work parameters).

As for the sawing of the roof off - The car had aftermarket T-tops. They did not leak, and really did not look any different than the originals. My friend did not want these replaced. The shop cut the roof off the car because the car had aftermarket t-tops, and didn't tell my friend until we showed up to look at the car. He is super pissed about that alone.

I agree it could get really ugly.

[Dave Wanichek]

i agree with mike...get a lawyer...and keep us posted

[trs13]

I would call a Lawyer they have gone beyond the scope of work with out authorization. I have never had a good expierence swaping services, so now if I like a customers work i hire them and pay them and I now expect the same.

Tom Sexton

[Geeto 67]

I was kinda hoping to get what people think of these shop practices, and hope that soembody had a similar expirence they wanted to share (not that the get a lawyer comments aren't appreciated).

I have a funny feeling that the shop charged him the time in chasing down parts. I used to work for a corvette resto shop and we never did this (I have never even heard of it being done), the time involved in locating a part was the cost of doing business. We are waiting on the paperwork from the shop to see where exactly these 900+ hours went.

[cblandin]

Sadly, here are the ways this ends:

1. Your friend hires a lawyer and begins litigation. Lawyers are expensive (I dropped $5K last year on one related to child custody items). At best your friend "wins" which means he gets a judgement against shop. This "judgement" is a piece of paper that tells the shop to give your friend his car, or money, or something along those lines. The shop then "ignores" the piece of paper - it is JUST A PIECE OF PAPER (albeit a nice official pretty one). At which point your friend has to pursue the issue which means more work, more litigaiton, etc. Ultimately he MAY see some level of restitution out of the deal, but my guess is that it is unlikely, and in the meantime...his lawyer gets to buy a big new boat with all the money he has received.

2. Your friend comes to an agreement (in writing) with the shop owner declaring they are essentially "even". Neither party litigates, and your friend walks away with a hard lessoned learned...and half a Trans Am.

3. Both parties sue/countersue each other. Ultimately, neither one pays the other, and both parties' lawyers get to buy boats.

In my experience, it doesn't matter if you hire a high dollar lawyer or a cheap lawyer. The law is generally pretty clear on these things and most of the "work" they do is nothing more than secretarial in nature (which is why their legal assistants/secretaries do most of it anyway).

Have your friend go with option 2....

Just my .02...

[Geeto 67]

Originally Posted by cblandin

Sadly, here are the ways this ends:

1. Your friend hires a lawyer and begins litigation. Lawyers are expensive (I dropped $5K last year on one related to child custody items). At best your friend "wins" which means he gets a judgement against shop. This "judgement" is a piece of paper that tells the shop to give your friend his car, or money, or something along those lines. The shop then "ignores" the piece of paper - it is JUST A PIECE OF PAPER (albeit a nice official pretty one). At which point your friend has to pursue the issue which means more work, more litigaiton, etc. Ultimately he MAY see some level of restitution out of the deal, but my guess is that it is unlikely, and in the meantime...his lawyer gets to buy a big new boat with all the money he has received.

2. Your friend comes to an agreement (in writing) with the shop owner declaring they are essentially "even". Neither party litigates, and your friend walks away with a hard lessoned learned...and half a Trans Am.

3. Both parties sue/countersue each other. Ultimately, neither one pays the other, and both parties' lawyers get to buy boats.

In my experience, it doesn't matter if you hire a high dollar lawyer or a cheap lawyer. The law is generally pretty clear on these things and most of the "work" they do is nothing more than secretarial in nature (which is why their legal assistants/secretaries do most of it anyway).

Have your friend go with option 2....

Just my .02...

We tried #2 on saturday, the shop owner refused since he put a ton of money into the car he want's some of it back. He was pretty pissy about the whole thing. I've never heard of a shop putting any of its own money into a car in such a large quantity without owner approval. This whole thing is crazy.

[matt1970pon]

you should get some guys from here to stop by the shop,and say Hi to the @sshole,that would be fun but wouldn't help much.sounds like your freind has all the paperwork on the work he has done and the shop has none.I would get a lawyer quick.I have a feeling the shop is going to make up paperwork.I wouldn't give him a chance.I do it fast,it might tell the $sshole your friend isn't messing around.If he still doesn't come to a compromise I would smear his name everywhere.Us car guys stick together,not just pontiac guys all musclecar owners,thats what makes are hobby great.It would destroy the shop.

[DevoBuzz]

If you eventually can - post the name of the shop. I live in NJ and want to avoid any hassles when looking for a body shop. Thanks!

[goatless]

Am I missing something here? Am I the only one that thinks it's odd that someone was happy with paying $35,000(!!!!!!!!) on body work and paint for a 2nd gen Trans Am? The numbers being talked about in this story seem to have one too many zeros in them.

I would think that 35 grand would buy you one of the nicest 1977 TA's in existance. 70 grand should buy you two of the nicest '77 TA's in existance, not a hacked up body shell.

[red76TA]

sounds like the biggest rip ive ever heard of , did the shop say what theyre hourly rate was? just wondering, for 35 grand he should have got the finest 77 ta in existence, i can see close to 30 for a top notch metallic paint job and a bunch of body work, but not what you described. hopefully if or when it goes to court you get a decent judge who knows a thing or two, my friends have had cases go in the down after he had won the initial and was in to the 3rd appeal, and the third judge had a nice 68 or 69 vette!

[Geeto 67]

The Shop rate is $70 per hour, The shop owner is claiming 900+ hours in the car plus parts.

the things that set my alarm bells ringing when I first walked in the shop were:

1) new shop, no tool boxes anywhere in sight.

2) They cut the roof off the car without even having a replacement panel in their possession. When I asked where the old roof panel was I got a blank stare. They could not find it.

3) every figure was posied as an approximate and there was no paperwork anywhere.

4) The shop owner put his own money into the car!!!!!I can understand a shop footing the bill on small things where there has been a down payment, but this guy "claims" to have put more than $35,000 of his own money into the car. This blows my mind.


As for $35,000 into a car, I agree it is high. My friend even though it was a little high but it was a black car and he didn't want bad bodywork to show through the paint. He believed he was getting a finished driver with paint and new decals for the services he traded. The car was pretty nice going into the shop - it ran good for an old car and had a second rate paint job (lots of runs) but there were no major hits on the body.

I spoke with him today and I'll keep y'all posted as things devlop.

[400 4spd.]

I agree with Goatless. No '77 T/A would be worth 35K to restore. That aside, there is no way that the work (butchering) described justifies 70K.
I don't mean to sound so harsh, but your buddy made several stupid mistakes. I hope it works out for him. But, the odds are that he will take a big loss of some sort in this deal.

[red76TA]

no shop owner in his right mind would put up 35k in his own money , i think your friends got a pretty solid case, but that dont mean much in our legal system without a good lawyer

[az67goat]

You can't put 70k of body work into a T/A to make it original. Maybe 35k if it was a rust bucket and you hired an artisian to massage all the body panels so as to eliminate the filler process.

[marksking]

Hire an independent appraiser that specializes in classic and antique auto restoration. Have him go out and evaluate the work progress that he has in the vehicle and establish the labor hours that should be required to get to where it is. Then try to negotiate, if not hire a lawyer to negotiate. From what it sounds like, he does not have 900 hours in it at all.

[Tempest]

I'm not sure I have seen a floor at a shop worth 35K, but I think your buddy should say good-bye to the T/A and send the guy a bill for the flooring job. I agree with 'Goatless', "too many zeros".
A lesson to be learned, never trade services with someone. It is much better to treat each job independantly.

[Lemans1]

WOW, I have never heard of that kind of money for anything but a 100 point showcar, completely done. Your friend got royally screwed. I dont know about NJ, but in MD you are not legally responsible for anything over 10% of the original quote. Unless he notified the owner and he ok'd it, he should not have to pay it, and the shop owner is out of his mind if he thinks otherwise.