[dan68goat]

Does anybody have any information regarding 1968 Cowl Vin Tag not matching Vin Tag on dash? I have a 68 GTO convertible, and the cowl tag matches the car, but the dash vin tells me that it is Lemans. To my knowledge nothing has ever been changed on the car. Both vin tags look as though they haven't ever been touched. Cowl tag reads 24267. My dash vin reads 23737. Please help!!!

[gtohunter]

23737= Tempest cpe. Any work been done to repair rust in the lower windshield? You know the history of the car? If one were to retag a car, you would think that they would at least be knowledgeable enough to know htp from a vert #

[dan68goat]

thanks still the vin on the dash matches the title i got with it.
something is not adding up.

[GTO JOHN]

Not the answer your looking for but I'd say you have a 68 Tempest Convertible. The VIN matches the title.

I have seen two cowl tags stamped incorrectly from the factory:

1- 66 GTO with PHS black interior is stamped 222 on the cowl tag (red interior) Black is 223 code.

2- 66 LeMans cowl tag stamped 76-23737. Should have read 66-23737. I wish I had my camera for that one!

The assembly plant could have goofed up the cowl tags as they were punched out off the factory order sheets.

[dan68goat]

i have no dought this is a real gto.when starting the 4 year rust repair
the left side of the dash was fill the bondo and card board.
still why would someone remove the vin tag?
like i said the body tag matches perfect.example paint code is y-2
mayfair maze yellow,after removing the red paint ,yellow was under
the red paint.i'm going to find has much back ground on this has i can.

[getmygoat]

Get the PHS on both VINs . It might provide insight.

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

The VIN might be stamped on the top of the frame rail between the rear and bumper on the drivers side. There is also the possibility of the VIN being stamped on the firewall near the heater core.

[John V.]

I know of a '67 'bird convert that had a factory misstamped VIN plate. Body Data Plate was correct as convert, PHS docs showed correct as convert. VIN plate showed correct sequence no. but prefix incorrectly coded a coupe rather than convert, 223377U vs. 223677U. How that was missed at the factory, I do not know. Since all other documentation reflected the convert VIN, I assume the original Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin from which the original Title was presumably issued likely showed the convert VIN. Nobody today knows when the discrepancy was discovered, but the Title shows the coupe VIN which is actually on the car. Somebody probably discovered the discrepancy at resale, figured it was a typo on the Title and got the State to change it to the "correct" VIN to match the VIN plate. Unlike the sophisticated VIN coding of today, nobody at DMV would have any clue that the VIN on that '67 is miscoded for a convert and they certainly don't care. But it certainly creates some "issues" for the Owner within the Pontiac hobby.

I also went to great lengths about 2-3 years ago to establish a mismatch between a Data Plate and VIN plate on a '70 GTO which was being offered by a Dealer in Ohio. This car was nicely restored to match the Data Plate info. Both plates were for Fremont GTO's, but the VIN matched to a car built about 3 months after the car represented by the Data Plate. I was able to narrow down the VIN sequence no. to match the Data Plate to a range of about 500 cars. The same car recently was offered on ebay, not sure if it sold.

My best guess for why the mismatch was that the car may have been stolen many years ago and the VIN plate swapped to launder the theft. Back then, a thief would not have worried about the Data Plate. And today, a restorer would be "smart" enough to swap both tags. My suspicions were further aroused because I made contact by mail & email with the Seller 2-3 years ago. He responded by email to my initial snail mail letter, asked how I found him. When I told him what I was trying to learn, he stopped responding.

Your car may represent something very similar or totally different. It is very unlikely that the factory put a Lemans hardtop VIN on a GTO convertible. You can get the PHS docs but you will probably be very disappointed, it undoubtedly will be for a Lemans hardtop.

Does the VIN Plant code match to the Plant indicated on the Data Plate? If not, then it is very obvious one or the other was swapped. If from the same Plant, then like the '70 I studied, chances are that the VIN sequence no. will indicate a car built at a completely different time than indicated by the Data Plate.

Does the car have what appears to be an original engine or trans in it? Find the partial VIN on the block and you can obtain the PHS docs for that VIN which if it proves to be original, the PHS docs for that VIN will match to info on the Data Plate.

If the drivetrain is not original, your best hope is to find the VIN stamp on the frame rail, especially if you are doing a body off frame resto. I'm not familiar with '68's enough to know if the VIN is stamped on the firewall. I've heard this claimed, somehow I think it is more the norm for Firebirds, but don't know if you'll have any luck finding it on a GTO.

My theory about the theft possibility. Imagine a '68 GTO, maybe a year or 2 old. It gets stolen. The only way to identify it is by VIN (and description). The thief obtains a wrecked '68 Lemans hardtop with Title for cheap. Takes the VIN plate off the dash of the wreck, swaps it onto the dash of the recently stolen GTO, squirts it red to match the Lemans Title, renews the registration. Long before computerized cross-checking, I'm not even sure the State would've been able to identify VIN's of cars that had been wrecked. And for the stolen car, they only knew to look for the VIN plate which went to the dumpster.

Back then it was all so easy. In an effort to stop auto theft, new laws took effect in the years since, today, the VIN is on virtually every part of the car.

When I researched that '70, I tried to uncover evidence of a stolen VIN in the range of the VIN which I assume was originally on the car and which would have matched to the Data Plate. You may have heard of a case of a 1968 Corvette recently returned to the Owner who had it stolen in '69. In that case, the VIN hadn't been swapped. The Insurance Industry NICB Database was checked to discover the long ago theft. When I tried to check with them 2-3 years ago, I got nowhere, perhaps because I wasn't affiliated with law enforcement, perhaps because they couldn't search an old partial VIN (I had narrowed it to between about 242370Z119xxx and 242370Z121xxx and I've narrowed it some more since).

If you do discover the correct VIN for your GTO, you may want to tread very carefully. You could finish a resto, and have the car taken from you and returned to a long ago Owner. In the case of the Corvette, the car was not covered by Insurance. Even if it was, the Insurer would have had rights to it. Hard to say if the Insurer would have reclaimed the car, they may have preferred to settle for some cash. But you should be aware that if you "prove" your GTO was stolen long ago, you may find yourself on the short end of the stick.

With a Lemans hardtop VIN plate, the value will always be diminished in the hobby. If you have friends in law enforcement or high places in Auto Insurance, and you are able to learn the VIN, you might quietly be able to learn if the VIN is listed as stolen. If it comes back clean, I'm not sure what you could do anyway. The State would want to put a bogus State issued VIN plate on the car. Companies reproduce Data Plates but I am not aware of anybody legally restamping VIN plates. Then you would struggle to get a legitimate Title issued for it.

[north]

i parted out a 69 gto (fremont car) back in the late 80's from page arizona, it was a junk yard car (hit hard on drivers side) but bone original, paint, engine etc and had 1971 plates on it. the car had clearly never been messed with. what made it unique was that the vin was missing the model and bodystyle numbers (4237) they had never been stamped. so i guess anything can happen.
that being said i would think that the chance of a mistake in the trim tag is probably 100 fold that of a VIN error, VIN's were the foundation of legal title to a car and heavily regulated and therefore surveyed much closer than the trim tag which, once the car was built, was only of use to a body man painting a fender or something.

if you enjoy driving the car do not worry about it, but i would be careful not to put to much money into the car as this problem will always handicap it's value seriously

[dan68goat]

thanks to everyone giving me help on this.
i have friends in both ins and law.
looking at my title closely it tell's me it a hard top.
i have talked to the person selling me the car hoping he might shed some
light on this.i have looked on the frame for numbers 3908665 and s with a circle around it and then 131 doe's this make sense to anyone?
i hope i find this car was not stolen!!!!
and yes i have spent big money on this restro.

[gtohunter]

That is not the vin#...the frame vin will be on the drivers side top of rail, about a foot from the rear of the frame. Need a mirror to even see it. I've seen the type of numbers you describe on mine as well.

[north]

if you can get a good confort level on the legality of doing it you should look at buying a vin from a boneyard convertible gto and doing the swap. again if you are confident it's legal a few hundred dollars might add 10 times that to the value of your car.

anyone planning to blast me for saying this should first note that i said if legal!!!

[cuz68]

Very well said north. The vin# will not be under the heater on a 68. Did you buy the car to keep? If so keep it and Enjoy. Good luck with it anyway.

[dan68goat]

first their is no dought i will make sure this car is legally mine not stolen.
if i can't find the anwsers i looking for then maybe i will try and find a salvage
yard who will to sell me vin tags and then make right.but who if any
would sell you just vin tags???then a gto and convertible on top of that.

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by cuz68

The vin# will not be under the heater on a 68.

it is on my 68 gto and on the lemans parts car i have.

mike

[gto4evr]

Dan,

Just because you bought the car legally doesn't mean 5 owners back didn't get duped in 1978. It won't matter, if it's proven stolen, the car goes back to the owner it was stolen from regardless of any receipts you produce. It's not legal to buy vins from a yard in any state I know of so I'd suggest either getting your money back if you paid psycho goat convertible money for the car, or keep it and drop off the radar if you like it and want to drive it. At this point, you are your own worst enemy if you draw attention to the car with title searches and such on the original vin#. I can see no other reason for anyone to swap a lemans vin tag onto a GTO other than to hide a theft car and get it back into the system. The magic 24267 numbers weren't in anyone's mind back in the day so it would be alot easier to pass the car off to an unsuspecting buyer. I guess there's a third option of pursuing it through a title search, if it proves out to be stolen you might ask for a reward from the rightful owner for doing the right thing. (I wouldn't hold my breath that it would cover your costs.) You're in a tough situation, and I don't know if you have the option of returning the car for the money, but the value of that car is officially off the GTO convertible list -- do a search on this forum for Vin tag swapping and read the thousands of posts about it. General concensus is car becomes no better than a clone and legal action will probably ensue if you don't disclose this and the new owner finds out. Good luck!!

[cuz68]

mike n. Do you have any photos where they are at on the GTO? thanks randy.

[Greg Reid]

Here's a pic of the only number I found on the cowl....it does not come anywhere near matching my VIN though.
BTW, my rosette riveted dash VIN, data plate, engine partial VIN and the engine unit number as noted on the PHS all match.

[dan68goat]

is this true that all 68 gto's have the vin# on the left rear
frame rail?
thanks dan c.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by dan68goat

is this true that all 68 gto's have the vin# on the left rear
frame rail?
thanks dan c.

According to Zazarine, yes. If you have his book, check the top of page 17. It shows a photo.
I have to say, I don't see how anyone could read this number with the body on the frame.