[michaeld]

Hello everyone,

As you see by the number of posts, I'm brand new to the forum. I'm also new to Pontiac cars (in fact I haven't even seen mine yet!).

Have a few questions about Grand Villes and 455s, and yours is the best (so far ONLY!) well-contributed-to forum I could find on the big body Pontiacs. By way of stroking your egos, I can tell you that I've read through a number of posts, and have been very impressed both with the depth of knowledge and the attitude of friendliness and helpfulness. Neither attribute seems common to many auto forums.

I have an opportunity to purchase a '73 Grand Ville 4 dr landau hardtop, with 58,000 actual miles, for $500. The engine is a 455, and the transmission is a TH400. The car was originally purchased by an insurance salesman who bought the car in order to sell insurance to a Pontiac dealership in a quid pro quo deal. It was a second car until the salesman died. The widow hung on to the car, apparently keeping up on ALL the maintenance, and drove it once a month as a remembrance of her husband until last year when she sold the car along with her house to a close personal friend of mine. She didn't know what the car was worth, and had already chased away one young neighbor who wanted to buy the car to drive it in a crash derby, and sold it to my friend for $500 over the price of the house. My friend had thoughts of driving it in Concourse events, but in the year since that hasn't happened. He offered the car to me for what he paid for it, and I said WHY CERTAINLY! My friend is honest beyond the capacity of words to describe, and is also very familiar with cars and all things mechanical. He says the car is in phenomenal condition, and I trust his judgment far beyond my own.

My friend and I will drive to Washington state - towing a 1924 Dodge one way on the way up and a truck on the way back - and I will be driving the Pontiac 1000 miles home to Palm Springs (Which means I'll be paying nearly as much for gas as I will for the car!). I am a little concerned about that trip, as the car probably hasn't gone a thousand miles in the last fifteen years. My friend is confident that the car will easily make the drive, however, and he will be driving his truck back with me. We may be going some time in the next couple of weeks.

That's the history of the car, and how I am coming by it. I've never been a Pontiac guy per se, but I've always liked big old cars (I've had a 68 Chrysler Town & Country with a 440, a 70 Ford Galaxie 500 with a 429, and a Cadillac Brougham with a 350), and this Grand Ville certainly seems to qualify. I've always thought that Ford, GM and its subsidiaries, and Chrysler have ALL made some great cars, and some lousy cars. How does the Grand Ville rate in the vast scheme of things? How does it rate as a Pontiac?

I've tried to find out as much as I could about Grand Villes via Google, and have learned precious little. Same with the base 455 engine (although there's quite a bit about the super duties, and a fair amount on the high outputs). From what I've learned, my Grand Ville would have the base 455 engine. I know it's horsepower and torque, but little else. How durable is this engine? I heard that the Oldsmobile and Buick 455s both tended to have oil circulation issues, but haven't heard much of anything about the Pontiacs.

What can you base 455 guys tell me about this engine? I've read that the TH-400 is a pretty darn good transmission, but know very little about the pros/cons of the Pontiac base 455. What are the best sources of information re: this engine? Has anyone found any good links to Grand Villes that don't show up on Google searches? Is there a good book on these Pontiacs?

If I remember correctly, 73 would have been the first year of hardened valves, and I will NOT need to use lead substitutes. And - since the engine is at 8:1 compression, I should NOT need to run higher octane gas. Is this correct? What's your experience been? My friend estimates he's been getting 12 mpg, and the EPA rates the car at 11. How have you guys done? Also, how do these 455s handle modern traffic? Is 250 hp/370 ft/lbs enough to MOVE this behemoth in traffic with that 3 speed? (I don't even have to ask whether it will do hills and grades well!)

Also, the question of parts availability. How easy is it to get parts for this engine? Will I be able to go to my local parts stores (Kragen, Autozone, Napa)? I've got an old Mercedes that is a PITA for parts. How about body parts (I read the recent post about parts being a drawback for these cars).

I frankly have no intention of engaging in any major restorations or performance upgrades for this car. But I would like to keep it in good running order.

Mike

[goatless]

Mike, welcome to PY!
Sounds like you've scored yourself a great (big!) cruiser. If the car has been cared for the way you say it should last a good long time. I'd be a little wary about driving that far for the maiden voyage just for that fact that it hasn't been driven much in a long time.

Pontiac motors will run forever if they're not abused (over revved), same for the TH400. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding basic maintainance parts for your car but body and trim is a whole other story.

That Grandville will be a dream to drive out on the road, the 455 should move it around with ease! It won't be any canyon carver but it'll be competent in modern traffic and have a smoooooooooth ride.

Good luck with it and post some pics when you get it home.

[goatless]

One other site you should check out is http://www.fullsizepontiacs.com/
Lotsa good info on the BIG Pontiacs.

[michaeld]

Originally Posted by goatless

Mike, welcome to PY!
I'd be a little wary about driving that far for the maiden voyage just for that fact that it hasn't been driven much in a long time.

Goatless,

Thanks for the link. I went to it and looked around a little, but will have to look at it more thoroughly later. Do they have a forum?

I watched your Ytube vid about 4 times. Always fun to see chariots that big and heavy pull away that fast. I hope you opened your hood after the race and let all them horses out to graze in the pasture after they won you your race.

I've been thinking about that drive. I'm mainly concerned about a partially blocked radiator that doesn't affect the system until the car's going up a grade. Is there anything else I should worry about assuming all the fluids check out okay? Frankly, I've never had to "de-mothball" a car before. I'd be driving with a truck towing a load, so we'd be sub-60 mph most all the way.

I don't know if the car has been garaged, but it has at least been car-ported. It's been in the desert of southeastern Washington, so it's been in a pretty good climate. I will frankly be surprised if I see ANY of that four-letter word that rhymes with "dust" on this car. John told me it was "mustard yellow," which doesn't sound too appealing (I guess I'm more of a Grey Poupon man myself). Does anyone have a car the color he is likely describing, or a link to the 73 Grand Ville chip set? As for the top, I seem to remember John saying it had a vinyl top, but I can't recall the color.

This car will be clean, and about as well-preserved as a car kept in the aforementioned conditions can be. John says the engine is strong and powerful, but he hasn't driven it very much. Simply based on the "once-a-month-to-town-and-back" driving, I'm concerned about the possibility of sludge buildup in the block. But I frankly have no clue how to check for that. The engine performs quite well on short drives, in any event.
John says he doesn't expect me to buy the car until I've seen it, but in my mind I've already bought it. I aint driving no thousand miles just to look at a car and then go back home!

I'd appreciate any advice on tips to prep this sleeping giant for such a long drive. I considered towing it, but that would mean renting a truck AND trailer, and that just seems a bit much. I'd rather take the car to a mechanic and have him do whatever needs to be done, than give it to U-Haul only to pay a mechanic once I get home. I mean, after all, this Grand Ville is a car, it's supposed to DRIVE!

I would definitely take it out for an Italian tune-up, i.e. a nice long drive on the freeway at good speed, to check her out before the trip. But - other than fluid checks - what else do y'all recommend?
Mike

[1970cat]

if it were me, i would get the radiator fixed, check belts and hoses.check points, plugs, wires, brake hoses, tires, etc. pick up a small tool set for emergency repairs. these should give you some piece of mind. tune up items, belts and maybe hoses(if not i'm sure a flex hose would work) should be available at almost any parts store. have a safe trip!

[Stuart]

Flushing the radiator may be a good thing. Years ago I bought a '65 Grand Prix that was a genuine little old lady car. The one thing I had to do was get the sludge cleaned out of the radiator as it tended to run hot. After that was done it was problem free.

Take a look at the tires, too - even if they still have good tread they may be pretty old.

[michaeld]

1970cat,

Sounds like pretty good advice. I'll just bring some tools along with me (sockets, a few wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers). I've also got a thermocouple as well as a non-contact thermometer that might be handy at reading potential cold spots on a blocked radiator. A multimeter may be handy as well for spotting any charging issues. I'll bring hose clamps along as well, and then assess the belts and hoses when I get there. I despise flex hoses, and try to avoid them whenever possible.

Fortunately, I have AAA Plus, and have up to a hundred miles of towing for any one event.

It just occurs to me that it's quite possible that my friend is planning to use a trailer big enough to tow TWO vehicles and tow my "new" old car as well. He's got a big diesel that puts out something like 600 plus ft/lbs, so that certainly is possible. This would make all the tools moot. That's really his call, of course. I could rent the trailer, if he's partial to the idea. At some point it will certainly be a good idea to ASK him what he's got in mind.

I'm looking forward to driving this car. I've got an old Mercedes luxury saloon with a big V8 from the same era; it will be interesting to drive the one, and then the other, to compare the engine acceleration and smoothness, shift points, comfort, and ride. It also has a 3 speed auto. The Merc actually (on paper, at least) puts out slightly more hp and torque than the Pontiac, but they're pretty close. Sound like an interesting experiment?

Stuart,
Flushing sounds like a very good idea, and I'll probably either do it or have it done unless I can verify that it had been done recently. When I bought my Mercedes, the radiator - which turned out to be 40% blocked - ran fine in town and during short trips, but started running a little hot when I took it for a long drive and an uphill grade. In that case, a flush was useless; I needed to replace the core.

I'm obliged to 1970cat, as his suggestion to bring tools made me think about the thermometers. Having the problem once has made me very aware of "hidden" cooling system problems. Most people don't know it, but it turns out that MOST engine rebuilds/replacements turn out to be caused by poor cooling system performance, and MOST rebuilders don't upgrade their cooling systems when they do a rebuild/reinstall.

As for the tires, one of the good things about this car is that John specifically mentioned that the widow replaced the tires and the battery, and both were recently replaced. He said she had all the maintenance done on a regular bases. I have a high level of optimism that I will look at the engine compartment and see new hoses and belts. I'm most concerned about the radiator (usually not replaced until something goes wrong) and the wiring (same deal) which becomes brittle with age.

Mike

[mzbk2l]

Mike, another good note about the Pontiac 455: ALL pontiac blocks from 326-455 share the same external dimensions. There are some minor differences, mostly in the pre-1966 engines, but for the 70's on up, just about anything from any Pontiac V-8 will bolt to almost any other Pontiac V-8.

This means that your odds of finding parts in stock - should you need them - is greatly increased.

[michaeld]

mzbk2l,
Now THAT is useful information. I would have expected nothing less from a guy named 'Mike.' One of my concerns in getting any old car is parts availability. I see that some of you have struggled to get seals for your cars. Lack of body parts is bad enough; lack of engine parts is a killer.

I'm interested in the overall quality of the Grand Ville, and specifically its 455. The SD and even HO versions are the stuff of legend, but what about the humble standard engine? I was pleased to hear that the Grand Ville had a TH400, as that may well be the best transmission GM ever built.

Not every engine is wonderful simply because it's big. And not every engine is pathetic simply because it doesnt' pack a ton of horsepower. In the world of "giant, torque-based engines," where does the Pontiac 455 stack up in automotive history? How good is the stuff in this car?

Also, I am more than willing to trade horsepower for a cheaper fueling experience; does the 73 have hardened valve seals so I won't need to add lead? Is it's compression low enough to use 87 octane?

How easy is this engine to work on? Do things make sense? Will I have to do stupid things like pull distributors or remove engine mounts just to change water pumps? (just one example of "stupid things"). Is there room to get around, or is the engine bay cramped?

I'm sure I'll have to learn a lot about this engine by playing with it, but there's a lot I'd like to know.

Thanks for the advice so far,

Mike

[grandville455]

welcome Mike to the boards!! That car will have plenty of room to work on there is an abundance of room under the hood do do anything u like... Sounds like a very nice car for only 500 dollars.. The grandville ride so smooth and they have power to spair even with the base 250 hp 455's.. Its the torque that moves them anyway .... It will only have 8:1 comp so 87 is fine.. get the carb tuned and the timing right and it will run great and be great on gas too for a yacht!

[455Grandville]

$500 is dirt cheap, you found a deal ! My bone stock 455 (200 hp not 250 like you have) has no problem smoking the back tire from a dead stop. Like Grandville 455 says, its the torque, not only is there alot, its avabile NOW, not at 4000 rpms.
You'll also find (just like all the cars you mention) its like all old big cars - they glide down the highway.

[Stuart]

It does have hardened valve seats as well, so no worries about unleaded gas. The engine is pretty easy to work on, as Grandville455 mentioned. The plugs are easy to reach (except the one behind the air conditioning compressor is a little tight), you can remove the intake manifold without having to remove the distributor first, and the water pump is easy to get to (although if you have to do that, be careful as the bolts tend to corrode in place.) About the only major wear item in my experience is the timing chain and gears will wear out, but that usually doesn't happen until well after 100,000 miles. The exhaust manifold gaskets will sometimes leak as well, but again that usually doesn't happen on low mileage cars.

[Tennesseestorm]

I agree. $500 is a steal on this car and I am glad that the kid did not get it to derby. That would be an absolute crime in my opinion. Thats why so few of these cars remain today.

I have a 73' Grand Ville 4dr (which is also on the show gallery on the 71-76 Pontiac site). I have around 94K on mine. I had to pay a little more for mine a few years ago ($1000), but still think I got a good deal. I have a little lifter noise and valve cover leaks, but other than that- no issues. I am going to adjust those to see if it helps. I had to replace several fuel lines under the hood when I bought it (mine had set for years as well) and I would very highly recommend that you do the same before driving it. I would at least check them very closely. Since I have purchased my car, I had to install a new brake booster and I changed the transmission fluid/filter.

Oh, I also use unleaded fuel. There were a little over 44,000 4dr Grand Villes made in 1973, so they were fairly rare, even back then.

That yellow you mention is a fairly rare color.... there is one on this link.... is it the same color?
http://www.classicpontiacs.com/seven...973/index.html
There is a 2-door and 4-door here that are yellow.

How is your car equipped with options? Does it have any of the following?
A/C (std or ATC), power windows, power locks, cruise, tilt, Am-Fm, tape player, power seat, power trunk, cornering lights, rear defog/frost, gauge package, cut-pile carpeting, lower door courtesy lights, "Custom" interior option, etc.

Also, post photos when you can.... good luck!

[soon2b2ltmp]

Welcome to the Highway Navy! You've joined the ranks of the Land Cruisers, Battleships, and Aircraft carriers!

i have no problems getting my small 400 catalina up and going down the highways. If I stomp the gas pedal from a dead stop i can get the rear tire to spin.

if you'd like to make the engine sound a little bigger than it is, and in my opinion really cool sounding when the secondaries open is flip the air-cleaner lid! you hear that WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH when they open!

[michaeld]

Yeah, $500 is a steal for ANY low mileage car, regardless of the year, make, or model. BTW, the price has actually gone down to $450; I gave John a road bike for his grandson, and he insists on paying me for it.

John says he was thinking of me when he offered to buy the car from the widow. His wife thought it might be fun to drive Concourse events, but that never happened, so he offered it to me again. He could certainly sell it for more, but he's the kind of guy who'd rather see a friend enjoy it.

John knows I like 70s cars and wagons. Why do I like them? Because when I was a kid, we bought a 76 Mercury Montego wagon. We would go out to eat - something that was something of a treat because we didn't go out to eat very often - and then go to dealerships. We'd test drive several cars, and talk about it as a family. I still remember the new car smells and the excitement of getting that big roomy wagon that we used to travel across half the country on vacations. When I see a 70s car, I think about that.

A couple of other reasons I like 70s cars is that they are cheap. Most 70s cars just tend to get ignored by classic car people due to the lowered compression, the big bumpers, and the EPA crap (I think the fact that the manufacturers switched to measuring net horsepower has something to do with it to). But, even though they don't pack the horsepower of the 60s cars, they are still great cruisers, and they still stand out from a crowd that drives things that appear to have been designed from the same wind-tunnel study. I'm also frugal; I'm not going to pay top dollar just to impress people I don't even know.

There's also safety. I am driving around in something that is big, heavy, and made of honest-to-gosh metal. You don't want to run into me. Somebody ran into my 70 Ford Galaxie, and their front end was destroyed. Me? I had to buff some paint off my bumper.

Finally, I like to have cars that are durable. How many new cars will be around in ten years, let alone 30? Cars aren't built to last any more. They've got too much whiz bang stuff, and too many sensors and solenoids embedded in the engines and transmissions that WILL fail and then be more expensive to replace than the car is worth. Heck, I've done that with a late model car myself!

I like the cut of these Grand Ville's jib. I've never owned a Pontiac before, but have always liked the front ends, with the hoods coming to a point at the center. I like the rear wheel skirts. I wish it was a little shorter, but think of the cargo room! I hope its better designed than my Cadillac Brougham trunk, that had all sorts of weird angles. But a nice luxury cruiser that cruises over the road; that's what I'm talking about! I love the term, "Highway Navy!" I'd never heard that one! Sign me up.

When I see it, I'll take some pics, interior, exterior, and engine.

Right now, I know its got AC and power windows. I'm not sure about anything else. Actually, I'm interested in what options WERE available for the 73 Grannies (I can see why one of you guys wanted to re-badge a Grand Ville into a "Bonnie" when I called it that). That way I can compare what it's got to what it could have had, or STILL could have if I buy the parts.

Thanks for the info on the engine. From my perspective, 73 may be the best possible year. I would trade horsepower for lower cost fuel and not having to add lead substitute every tank, but I STILL like having power. As you guys clarify, the 73 Pontiacs have the low compression and the hardened valves, yet don't have the smog pumps and the catalytic converters. They also appear to have a true dual exhaust, so that will make them decent performers right there. It occurs to me that our 250 hp engines would have been 300 hp engines a couple of years before when they measured gross. John has made it clear to me that this car doesn't have any problems getting there.

Thanks for the heads up on the fuel lines, Tennesseestorm. I will look them over carefully. I probably won't be able to replace them before starting the trip unless they're clearly nasty, but it's nice to be aware of the issue. This car has sat, but apparently been driven at least monthly. From what John has told me, the car drives quite nicely right now. I'll be looking over the radiator very carefully, and may take it out and have it flushed before starting the trip.

I'm glad that these engines are readily accessible and sensibly put together. There are some unforgivably idiotic engine layouts, even in 60s and 70s cars. Glad this one aint one of them.
Mike

[dedsleds]

that was a steal, a running 455 around chicagoland is worth double that complete. sounds like a cool car.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by michaeld

I like the rear wheel skirts. I wish it was a little shorter, but think of the cargo room! I hope its better designed than my Cadillac Brougham trunk, that had all sorts of weird angles.

If it's like the '71 Catalina I used to have, you'll be able to use the trunk for overnight sleepovers.... It's big.

[Tennesseestorm]

Yeah, those photos will be very nice to see. $450 is an absolute steal for this car. I know you will love it.

Options.... well, thats where the 70s ( and 60s ) cars get very interesting- which is one reason I like them... they are all so oddly and differently equipped.

As far as options go, the list is very long, even on the Grand Ville. I have seen "loaded" Catalina's and "plain-jane" Grand Villes. Back then (as you may already know) options were individually ordered.
There is a rather long thread here somewhere on everyones car and its options. As far as the 71-76 Pontiacs go, this is just a sample of options that were optional on most all models (but I am mainly referring to the 73' models now):
Power windows, power locks, power seat, tilt wheel, cruise control, 4-season A/C, automatic climate control A/C, AM radio, AM-FM radio, tape player, power trunk release, deluxe wheel covers, rear window defog, rear window defrost, air suspension, cornering lights, 60/40 seat, bumper strips, bumper gaurds, side molding trim, vinyl top covering, "Custom" interior option (which I think included cut-pile carpeting, front seat back handle, power outlets, color-keyed seat belts), lower door courtesy lights, tinted glass, gauge package. I do not have my sales brochure here with me, so I am probably leaving some out.

The difference between models were mostly cosmetic/trim. As mentioned, I have seen loaded Catalinas and plain Grand Villes. I saw a 73' Catalina 2dr, with all interior options, as well as cornering lights, deluxe wheel covers, vinyl top, side moldings, bumper gaurds, bumper strips, whereas I have seen some Grand Ville's without any of these- I have even seen some Grand Villes without A/C, power windows, vinyl top, etc.

Thumbs up on the fuel lines. You may want to carry a fire extinguisher just for safety reasons- just in case one leaks.

Originally Posted by michaeld

When I see it, I'll take some pics, interior, exterior, and engine.

Right now, I know its got AC and power windows. I'm not sure about anything else. Actually, I'm interested in what options WERE available for the 73 Grannies

[michaeld]

Originally Posted by Tennesseestorm

Thumbs up on the fuel lines. You may want to carry a fire extinguisher just for safety reasons- just in case one leaks.

"Do you smell something burning or is it just me?"

I may have been a little too hasty describing a quick timeline for this car (folks in my family call this phenomenon "talking smack").

John bought a brand new Toyota Prius the other day, and paid out enough that he doesn't know if he's too excited about buying that 24 Dodge. That may mean he won't be driving back anytime soon. And when they DO leave, they won't be going home, but to the midwest to visit family. The car is certainly going to be mine, but I may have to go through a version of "farmer and the lamb, the wolf, and the cabbage" in order to have John, the car, and myself all in Washington at the same time.

We MAY yet go back fairly soon, but then again it may take quite awhile.

As to options...

I'll be able to find out more about what the car has fairly soon. In a way, for my driving, I hope it doesn't have TOO many. I look at a lot of options as plain annoying. Take power door locks; you've got these things that aint that great to begin with (IMHO), and then they fail and cause real headaches. Believe it or not, I'm the same way about power windows, albeit to a lesser extent of annoyance. They just don't tend to last as long as the manual kind, and they don't (again, IMHO) make my life much more wonderful.

There ARE some options - such as power radio antenas - that WOULD be absolutely useless if it weren't for the fact that there are even more absolutely useless people out there who vandalize other peoples' property for no reason. Power antenas aren't for making the car look better, they are about hiding a vulnerable part from boneheaded jerks.

Glad to hear about the sensibly-enormous trunk layout. I use my trunk a lot - albeit not for bodies - so it's nice to have a large-looking trunk that's really a LARGE trunk.

Like I said, I may have to go to a little more effort to get this car than I initially believed. It's possible that I may even have to fly to Washington to get it. The car will be cheap enough that it will STILL be a good plan (particularly if I can pick up one of those $97 tickets that still occasionally become available). If I didn't believe that the car was CHERRY, I would probably move on to something else. That, and the fact that reading through a lot of posts on this forum has triggered my "Big Pontiac maternal instincts."

Mike

[Tennesseestorm]

Well, I have some good news for you. For one, on these cars, the higher optioned, the better (especially if you resell). Typically, higher optioned models are more desirable (or very low optioned cars, for their rarity).

The other good news is that if this car has power windows and/or locks, I would about bet they are fine- but hopefully yours will not be the exception. My 73' Grand Ville has power windows and power door locks, all still in perfect working order. I have had several early 70s GM cars with power windows/seats/locks, etc and never had an issue. The power windows and locks on these older cars (well, GM cars) are fairly reliable- unlike the PW and PDL of the 90s and early 2000s car. I say GM, because we have had some 60s/70s Lincolns with power window woes, but I never had an issue with my power windows/locks on my old 72' Cadillac, 72' Buick, 71' Oldsmobile, etc. GM seemed to have set the benchmark here. I even have no problems with the power windows or power locks on my 69' Chevrolet Caprice. The windows work very smoothly and quickly. Also, on these cars, if the power locks fail, they can still be operated manually as if they were not even power.

The only issue I have with my Grand Ville, is where the weather stripping on my rear door windows are in poor conditions, that they will sometimes "catch" when going down, which is not a good thing.

Antenna.... I do not think that the 73' Grand Ville's had power antennas. I think they were all incorporated into the front windshield. Thats the little lines you see in the center of the windshield.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by michaeld

I hope it doesn't have TOO many. I look at a lot of options as plain annoying. Take power door locks; you've got these things that aint that great to begin with (IMHO), and then they fail and cause real headaches. Believe it or not, I'm the same way about power windows, albeit to a lesser extent of annoyance. They just don't tend to last as long as the manual kind, and they don't (again, IMHO) make my life much more wonderful.

There ARE some options - such as power radio antenas - that WOULD be absolutely useless if it weren't for the fact that there are even more absolutely useless people out there who vandalize other peoples' property for no reason. Power antenas aren't for making the car look better, they are about hiding a vulnerable part from boneheaded jerks.