[unruhjonny]

hello;

I am posting in this section of the forums to see if anyone with thorough knowledge in these cars might be able to help me figure out if a specific transmission was available in these years.

The specific transmission I am looking to find information on is the Muncie built (heavy duty) three speed transmission.

Although I seem to recall looking through a 1973 Pontiac service manual that showed it being applicable to the 1973 model year GTO, to the best of my knowledge this transmission was dropped from the Firebirds availablility list after the 1971 model year.

Does anyone know if this transmission was available to the 73 GTO or any other year 73+ A-body?

If so, does anyone know with certainty what the RPO was for this (or any other) model year?

As I understand it this transmssion was first available in the 1968 Camaro & Chevelle under the Chevrolet RPO code of M13, then as of the 1969 model year the Chevrolet RPO code changed to MC1.

My information gathered so far indicaes that the MC1 transmission was available in the Chevelle up to the 1972 model year.

I also understand (and this is a but fuzzy) that this transmssion was available up to about hte 1974 model year in the 1/2 ton trucks - but as I've understood it the trucks recieved the 3.03:1 1st gear ratio while hte passenger cars all recieved the 2.42:1 1st gear ratio.
Since this transmssion appears to have been available till at least 1974, I am trying to clearly define to which vehicles it was available. (I am currently attempting to make a document that clearly defines which model years and with which divisions engines this transmission was available to further assist me in future searches for parts.)

The reason why I'm looking for other peoples' knowledge in this specific transmission is that my '70 Formula came from the factory with one of these transmissions, and untill recently I was unable to locate one of them...
Then I scored an exact match to my car (correct transmission code, gear set & date code!!).

I also aqquired a spare Muncie 3 speed that I would suspect is the truck version (3.03:1 1st gear), and am going to start looking for spare parts - becasue as you might be able to suspect parts for the Muncie 3 speed are not as readily available as for an M20/ M21/ M22.

From looking through my Firebird MPC it appears as though this transmssion isn't even listed there - theres the dearborne (?sp) and saginaw, but no Muncie three speed!

As I understand it (unless it was available in any other years) only 308 1970 & 1971 Formulas (286-'70/L78, 15-'70/L74, 7-'71/LS5) were built with this transmssion , and an unknown number of 70/71 Esprits L30's car had this transmission as an option (it was available as an upgrade over the standard saginaw transmission for the L30-350/2bbl; my Formula M13 numbers are going from memory, so they might be off by a couple).

Any assistance you can offer would be appreciated.

(If you see a post much like this in another section of the forums please humor it, I'm really fishing for as much information as I can find.)

Thanks!

[dblsprt68]

Hello, I can't help you much at all, but wanted to say I owned a 1968 Camaro RS/SS with a 350 and M13 3 speed. A grand total of 752 SS Camaros, 350 and 396 came with the m13 3 speed. It had the special first gear also. It was only availible on the SS cars, and was the Base trans offered. When I get my car back(sold it to a friend in 91), I'm going to put a 5 or 6 speed in it, and keep the 3 speed tucked away. My car would be screaming at 70-75, it just needs another gear or two OR 3!! Back to the subject, there is a guy on this site in Florida ( I can't remember his name) who has a Formula 350 3 speed 70-73. That's all I know. David out

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by dblsprt68

Hello, I can't help you much at all, but wanted to say I owned a 1968 Camaro RS/SS with a 350 and M13 3 speed.
A grand total of 752 SS Camaros, 350 and 396 came with the m13 3 speed.
It had the special first gear also.
It was only availible on the SS cars, and was the Base trans offered.
When I get my car back - I'm going to put a 5 or 6 speed in it, and keep the 3 speed tucked away. My car would be screaming at 70-75, it just needs another gear or two OR 3!!
...there is a guy on this site in Florida who has a Formula 350 3 speed 70-73. That's all I know.

Your post actually does help... I found no production numbers, so it gives me perspective.

What was your "special first gear"? - from what I've read, there was only 2.42 & 3.03...

If your car needed more gears, then overdrive is definatly a cure - because a three speed has the same final drive gear as a four speed or many five speeds (I understand that there's a five speed that has an overdriven fifth, but most of them just have a very deep first, and the fifth is still 1:1)

I believe that Formula 350 you are speaking of is a brown '73 Formula 350 - if so, it's a sagnaw car - because I am unaware of any year other than 1971 where a Formula 350 could come with the Muncie three speed.

I don't have any dillusions that an original 3 speed will add worth to a car, as a matter of fact your Camaro will likely be worth more with any 4/5/6 speed in place...

[dblsprt68]

I don't have any of the info with me now, it went with the car. I got that info from the Camaro red book? You can probably get that info off the web. I think that Formula was brown, he lives just south of Orlando. I bought an engine from him last year. My car was FUN to drive up to 70-75, then it was a pain because it needed more gears. It also came stock with an 11 inch clutch. My rear gear was a 3:31, so it wasn't low by any means. Good luck on your search.... David

[sport coupe]

Looks like it was available for any 73, 74 A body.

[unruhjonny]

Sweet!

Could you please email me a larger copy of that picture? (hopefully it will print better than that version) unruhjon@hotmail.com - If you can, please put the word "Pontiac" in the subject line so it isn't filtered out as junk mail.

I'll have to re-check my Firebird MPC, becasue I (admittedly) didn't look under group 4.003; becasue I had no indication that I should look there... I think I looked at one of the last group 4 sections...

Thanks!!

[unruhjonny]

ok... I'm at home now and I've had some time to use that scan as a clue...

First; is that a dated price guide of sorts?
becasue it should lend to the belief that it is an application guide for all 1967-1975 Pontiac (shows A/F/X/H/T/P... although A/F/X all make sense, the H/T don't... I'm understanding that the T-platform was the Opel/Chevette type cars, and the P-platfor m was the Fiero??)

For starters;

the 3952657 number comes up in my Firebird MPC's like this:

3952657 1971-72/ST 3 SPD HD

Which would indicate that it was available in 1972 Firebirds... does this mean it was intended as an option, but possibly got dropped (much like the 1970 Formula's "400" trunk badge that is always listed)??

This definatly gives some solid hints, but leaves me just about as confused as I started...

[sport coupe]

Sent you a 2388X3240, 1726K if it is too big let me know and I"ll reduce it.

[unruhjonny]

recieved and printed - thanks!

is that a dated price guide of sorts?

becasue it reads as though it is.

[sport coupe]

Never thought about that. Maybe some Gm guy can give us a idea what that number means. Never did ask the counter guy what that price represents. Can only guess that is what the part cost, since there is no heading above the number.

[unruhjonny]

where did you get that paper?
(I'm guessing it was paper because it appeared as though it was a scan - with the three hole punch markings...)

[sport coupe]

I am not the only one that has one. Yes I scanned the page. Be carefull if trying to get one off ebay. They are not all the same. I was looking for an older version, but happy for the one I Have.

[unruhjonny]

thaks for the advice!

The one I ended up purchasing was the first and only 1970 "DG" - ("B" gear set) Muncie three speed I have come across...
I have probably come across three or four other Muncie three speed transmission auctions on eBay before:
-One is there right now (unknown date/gear set)
-one was an August 18, 1971 assembly date "A" code (3.03:1 1st, full code was M2M18A) trans. That auction ended Nov 20, 2005.
-one was a July 30, 1970 assembly date "A" code (3.03:1 1st, full code was M1K30A) trans. That auction ended May 4, 2006.
The latter two I printed of because of the information gather ed from them but the current one doens't give jack-squat for information...

The auction for mine tipped me off becaue the guy clearly knew what car it came from, and the picture indicated the Muncie side cover... (that auction ended April 16, 2005) I also emailed the guy before placing the bid, and he seemed like a straight shooter and was fine with holding onto the transmission untill I could drive down to pick it up...
I do not regret that purchase for one second... and he was a very friendly Poncho-holoc to boot (still had a couple Pontiac Tempests, I think one was an 1968 L30/M38, and the other was a 1969 Tempest)

One of hte things that elludes my complete understanding is the source ID codes for the Muncie three speeds;
My 1970, 1971, and 1973 Service manuals all indicate that the source ID should start with an "H" (as my does) but the two eBay actions clearly show it starting with an "M" - mabey it was becasue it was intended for a different division, mabey it was becasue both were the (supposed) truck gear set tranmisions ("A" code gear set)... I understand the souce ID can also start with an S...
I don't have an understanding of where or why each caharecture was used.

[billygoatii]

Rick, I don't think he is questioning whether a 3 speed was available or not. He is asking whether they came with a Muncie or Saginaw 3 speed, I believe.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by billygoatii

Rick, I don't think he is questioning whether a 3 speed was available or not. He is asking whether they came with a Muncie or Saginaw 3 speed, I believe.

Exactly!

[dblsprt68]

Here is another m13 car. In the Sept 07 new HP Pontiac magazine on page 40 is a stripper 1972 GTO Post coupe. It has very few options, so the standard trans was the m13. It says it's the 2.42:1 first gear. When I read this statement, my first thought was HOW??? Quote" The A body is very quick. The three speed tranny and the 3.55 gears are a perfect combo for me. First gear reaches(5,000 rpm) 40 mph, second gear hits (4,500 rpm) 70 mph and third handles 110 mph at 4500 rpm and the pedal has much more to give". ????????? What tha ? My 3 speed m13 350 68 Camaro was screaming at 80 mph in third gear!!! It had 3.31 gears. Maybe I just didn't wind up that numbers matching engine like I should have . I always kept it under 80 mph MAX speed. David

[unruhjonny]

the key would be the spread between gears which would slow you down when shifting...
in 3rd gear for a 3 speedd would be no different than 4th gear in a four speed (both 1:1)...

So I guess in this situation "screaming" is open to interpretation...
My '70 Formula has a 3.55:1 posi rear gear, and I've been past 110mph... many times - but normally not as a maintained speed.

Yup that GTO definatly has the Muncie sourec 3 speed (the first gear ratio is the big hint), it appears to me now that in 1968 GM had some trouble sourcing heavy duty three speeds, so your Camaro may have been an oddity - being that it came with the Muncie (but I'm still not clear if the '68 Chevy RPO/M13 was intended to be a Muncie)

I do know the following should be factual;

-1968 Chevrolet Munice 3 speed RPO = M13

-1969-1972 Chevorlet Muncie 3 speed RPO = MC1

-1970-1972 Pontiac Muncie 3 speed = M13

-The muncie three speed was clearly available to Pontiac until 1974 (1972-1974 A-body only).

-Chevrolet Muncie M13/MC1 was a 350/396/402 powered cars only (normally reserved for SS models, n/a in cars with 427/454 engines).

-Pontiac Muncie M13 was the standard transmission for 1970-1972 GTO's/ Tempest's/ Lemans's/ Firebird's with either the L78, L74 or LS5; the M13 was n/a on the 1970-1972 TA, as it had the M20 as standard transmission.

from that point though, it still is a tad fuzzy...

[455RM]

FWIW, I had a 1973 LeMans GT with a 350 and M13 Muncie 3 speed.

[Kurt S]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

.....it appears to me now that in 1968 GM had some trouble sourcing heavy duty three speeds, so your Camaro may have been an oddity - being that it came with the Muncie (but I'm still not clear if the '68 Chevy RPO/M13 was intended to be a Muncie)

I do know the following to be factual;

-1969 Chevrolet Munice 3 speed RPO = M13

dblsprt68 only stated that the trans was a M13. It would have been the Borg-Warner T16, not the Muncie.
The change was for $$. GM wanted to build it themself and save $ instead of paying B-W.

I assume that was a typo and should be
-1968 Chevrolet Munice 3 speed RPO = M13
since the next line was correct. (same RPO in 67, btw)

I'm surprised they changed RPO ID's on the trans, maybe it was due to the change from external supplier to an internal supplier.

Originally Posted by dblsprt68

When I get my car back(sold it to a friend in 91), I'm going to put a 5 or 6 speed in it, and keep the 3 speed tucked away.

dblsprt68,
When you get your 68 back, could you email me? I'd be interested in some #'s off of the car. You very rarely see a car still with an M13.
Thanks!
Kurt

[dblsprt68]

Kurt, My friend has the car now. It's still completely stock. I can ask him for the info you want, and I'll send it to you. PM me with the questions you have. The car was bought off the lot at Bill Heard Chevy in Alabama. My uncle who was a well off even then, probably bought it because it was cheap! This car had no A/C, no PS, no PB, am radio and SS hubcaps( which were still on the car in 89 when I bought it). I have the actual window sticker, and all paperwork from the day it was bought. It may have been raced a little, but was never modified. I sold it in 2001, I mistakeingly wrote 91 before. David

Originally Posted by Kurt S

dblsprt68 only stated that the trans was a M13. It would have been the Borg-Warner T16, not the Muncie.
The change was for $$. GM wanted to build it themself and save $ instead of paying B-W.

I assume that was a typo and should be
-1968 Chevrolet Munice 3 speed RPO = M13
since the next line was correct. (same RPO in 67, btw)

I'm surprised they changed RPO ID's on the trans, maybe it was due to the change from external supplier to an internal supplier.


dblsprt68,
When you get your 68 back, could you email me? I'd be interested in some #'s off of the car. You very rarely see a car still with an M13.
Thanks!
Kurt