[triathlonx13]

Patty (Canton Racing Inc.)

I received my Oil Pan back last night from your company. Ironically I received my latest issue of High Performance Pontiac magazine that afternoon as well. In the Tech Question and Answers section in the back of the December 2007 issue on pages 96 and 97 an issue was being discussed. Jim Taylor responded by commenting about the design of the 3 & 5 tab type rubber gaskets and problems with the Pontiac and 3 party designed pans. (refer to attached PDF file)

As the story told by Joel Babineau in the article, I to had pulled my motor twice only to send my pan back to your company for a inspection. At no time was I told that the pan design was poor and that this was a common issue. I would expect that after experiencing my testimony and an article that had reached High Performance Pontiac that something could be done. Furthermore, no directions about how to remedy a leaking pan or steps to ensure proper sealing were include with your product. I think a set of fully detail instructions and notifications of potential leak conditions need to be included in your Pontiac designed pans as an interim step until a new design change can be made.

With all things understood about car restoration, racing, and modifications - some allowances need to be understood. In this case I think something was missed on the part of Canton Racing, Inc.

First lets look at the cost of not having proper advanced notice of problems that might occur, detailed instructions of sealing pan to block, and gasket item list (excluding the 3 tab rubber gasket and instruction to use a cork gasket).

See what has been done and what it has cost me....
Cost of paying for first installation of the pan by my engine builder: What's the time involved? an hour...? could be more = $60 per/hr?
Gasket set used the first time. (APROX.) = $20
Silicone adhesive (APROX.) = $10
Materials and labor for the installation cost approximately a total of $90.

Engine installed the First time... pan leaks. OK - now I have to fix the leaking pan.
My time to remove engine = 6 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $180)
My time to remove gaskets and pan = 1 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $30)
My time to reinstall new gaskets and silicone = 1 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $30)
Cost of new pan gaskets (APROX.) = $20
Cost of new Silicone adhesive (APROX.) = $10
My time to re-install engine = 8 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $240)
Cost of new header gaskets = $15
Cost of new Carb gasket = $7
Cost of new oil filter adapter gasket = $5
Cost of engine oil = (8 qrts) = $24
Misc paints, cleaners, wire components (APROX) = $12
Engine installed the Second time... pan leaks. OK - now I have to fix the leaking pan again.

My time to remove engine a second time = 6 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $180)
My time to remove gaskets and pan a second time = 1 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $30)
My time to reinstall new gaskets and silicone a second time = 1 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $30)
Cost of new pan gaskets (APROX.) = $20
Cost of new Silicone adhesive (APROX.) = $10
Cost to ship pan to your company = $20
My time to re-install engine a second time = 8 hrs (let's say it's worth $30 per/hr = $240)
Cost of new header gaskets = $15
Cost of new Carb gasket = $7
Cost of new oil filter adapter gasket = $5
Cost of engine oil = (8 qrts) = $24
Misc paints, cleaners, wire components (APROX) = $12
* new costs yet to be accumulated.

OK - Hopefully Canton Racing Inc is starting to get an idea of the time and cost involved. (Approximately = $1,256) Pretty extreme is what I'm thinking. Plus, to make things worse then this... I missed out on 2 months of track/season time.

In addition to the article I will add that the concentricity of the rear pan radius to block cap radius in not achieved with your design when gasket thickness is taken into consideration. The not concentric gap do not support a uniform compression force along the sealing surface.

As you can now imagine a leaky pan is a fairly large problem that has been frustrating, costly, and discouraging.

[pro-tour79]

Canton does not claim to be in the Pontiac oil pan business and the fact is that Canton uses stampings from over seas that are made with the 3 hole tabe does not make it Canton's problem especialy when it is a factory design I feel that too many these days jump in the game of building their own stuff without the knowlage needed to avoid the pit falls and than blame someone else, this issue with the 3 hole design has been around for over 30 years and has been noted in every book poblished on the Pontiac V8 from Pete Mccarthy, Ken at HO, Jim Taylor and other publications from HO from the 70's as well as having been covered to death on this board and how to seal those pans.

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by pro-tour79

Canton does not claim to be in the Pontiac oil pan business and the fact is that Canton uses stampings from over seas that are made with the 3 hole tabe does not make it Canton's problem especialy when it is a factory design I feel that too many these days jump in the game of building their own stuff without the knowlage needed to avoid the pit falls and than blame someone else, this issue with the 3 hole design has been around for over 30 years and has been noted in every book poblished on the Pontiac V8 from Pete Mccarthy, Ken at HO, Jim Taylor and other publications from HO from the 70's as well as having been covered to death on this board and how to seal those pans.

:confused: Canton "produces, advertises, distributes, warrentees, and sells Pontiac Oil Pans. If that's not claiming to be in the Pontiac Oil pan business then I don't what is??

Most stuff is made over seas... contracted by direction from some one here in the states.

Yup the HHP article (with page reference) states just what you said about the 3 tab design flaw. .... sorta why I made the notation.

I didn't realize that if you knowing re-produce a bad design you can blame or re default back to the original designer... in this case GM

If you want to be the best you need to start with good parts... Anyone can copy crap.

Besides - the folks at Canton did not say the pan was correct... they said it was correct according to their specifiaction. The application of a pan for a Pontiac 400 (others) by their own part list calls for their pan number that gave me the problem. So it's sorta apparent they are making and selling something that doesn't work. Would it make you feel good if I sold you something that I knew that didn't work - and said it did?

This post was intended for further awareness. Seems that to many people on here "these days jump in the game" with out thinking things through.:thanx:

Advice - when selling a product knowing some fabrication or special caution needs to be taken. It's only good business sense to throw a "how to install" sheet in the dam box. I think it's easier then putting people through the ringer or trying to sell them all the books you mention.

[hectore3]

I have the Canton pan also. Have not installed it yet though. What is the secret of avoiding leaks?

[triathlonx13]

hectore3 - What Canton said was to use a thick cork gasket (Butler Pontiac sells them). The gasket will have to be trimmed for length and each end will need to have an angled cut off so that it sits flush on the flat on either side of the radius. then "super glue a thick cork gasket to the block cap (not really sure this is a good Idea - but "Todd the Engineer" at Canton said this "should work"). the thick cork gasket more then likely will need to be "shaped" using a file/etc on the area where the radius terminates on each side of the radius. What you aim for is a uniform compression on the cork gasket along the radius seal. There is a one minute cure black silicone called the right stuff that you can get at any car part store - you needs to add a little of this on the gasket to filling in any small areas. 24 cure. do not over torque your pan bolts. Check out the HHP Magazine article - that will help to. Be patient and take your time ( I bought two cork gaskets up front - just incase I screw up a cut or file to much off)

This is a common problem - not a simple slap it together and go. GOOD LUCK !

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Have installed dozens without issues. But then again I do this for a living. and buying from me gives you the inside info on what to do when installing a pan. And all the available options.

BTW: I have about 200 plus rear pan cork seals I have advertised in the for PY for sale section. Had them cut and made for me.

[pro-tour79]

Triathlonx13 I knew I would get flak for this but ! your last post proved my point the Canton rep gave you the answer on how to deal with the issue ( yes glue the cork to the main cap use the "gorilla sknot" stuff AKA super emblem adhesive) but yet you questioned the advice you were given as if you knew better than he did, the fact is Canton has nor had nothing to do with the design nor the currant stampings from overseas unfortunatly the worst of the 3 Pontiac designs was used to make the stampings and yes they are to spec but not the best specs, BTW check the gasket kit most come with all 3 rear pan gaskets.

[Jagtec1]

I use a Canton pan and a rubber 3 tit rubber seal...some "Right Stuff" dammed up on either side...NOOO leaky! Done it 3 times this way, and not ONE drop.

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by pro-tour79

Triathlonx13 I knew I would get flak for this but ! your last post proved my point the Canton rep gave you the answer on how to deal with the issue...but yet you questioned the advice you were given as if you knew better than he did, the fact is Canton has nor had nothing to do with the design nor the currant stampings from overseas unfortunatly the worst of the 3 Pontiac designs was used to make the stampings and yes they are to spec but not the best specs, BTW check the gasket kit most come with all 3 rear pan gaskets.

Well again - I'm glad you got your rocks off Pro. And yup "I" had the conversation with Canton, and it was my view point the this "Engineer" was not a sharp tool. It's ok that you don't really understand about contract manufacturing over seas or promoting/selling/warrantying products. Like I said in my last post... My post was to inform my experiences with a poor pan design and cost and time that can be involved. Unfortunately there are a lot of guys out there that have had this same issues - probably with other pans. Talking with a few guys at my local track, Norwalk, and English town.... Hearing that this has happenned about 4 out of ten guys... just shows that improvements can be made in the pan instructions or actually redesign the dam thing. Do you think that an instruction sheet shouldn't be included with the pan? Do you think there is room for improvement?

Note: My Post was a copy of what I sent to Canton with pdf files of the HHP Article.:)

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Who was the engine builder that installed that pan that leaked?

Was it the stock replacement type pan?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by pro-tour79

Canton does not claim to be in the Pontiac oil pan business and the fact is that Canton uses stampings from over seas that are made with the 3 hole tabe does not make it Canton's problem especialy when it is a factory design I feel that too many these days jump in the game of building their own stuff without the knowlage needed to avoid the pit falls and than blame someone else, this issue with the 3 hole design has been around for over 30 years and has been noted in every book poblished on the Pontiac V8 from Pete Mccarthy, Ken at HO, Jim Taylor and other publications from HO from the 70's as well as having been covered to death on this board and how to seal those pans.

I do have to agree on this statement. I personally like the holes in th rear seal area of the pan as it allows the Cork gasket to squeeze thru and stay in place. Glad they kept them as it is a bi*tch to keep in place with the raised area on the early pan and no recess in the block.

[pro-tour79]

well my first post was realy to high litght a trend that I see over all in the hoby that being said, the 3 hole pan is a Pontiac design not an after market design but when and if the engine is not built by a professional that knows what to do with factory designs that are troublesome the DYers are quick to blame others and expect something for their lack of knowlage this is why I noted that this has been an issue with this design pan for over 30 years and has been mentioned over and over on how to deal with it, this is why DYers should read up on how to do the job they want to do and with Pontiacs it's very easy there are only 3 books out there plus all the news letters and mag. articles from HO racing that I believe are still available from Ken at HO
and in fact as P-dude mentioned good thing the pan was not made after the old design with no hole because it would have caused a problem on the later blocks that don't have a groved rear main cap I do agree that the bes would be to stamp the pans with the late 5 hole design but obviously Tawain manufacturers don't feel this would be cost effective (so yes I do understand something about manufacturing ;) )

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by pro-tour79

well my first post was realy to high litght a trend that I see over all in the hoby that being said, the 3 hole pan is a Pontiac design not an after market design but when and if the engine is not built by a professional that knows what to do with factory designs that are troublesome the DYers are quick to blame others and expect something for their lack of knowlage this is why I noted that this has been an issue with this design pan for over 30 years and has been mentioned over and over on how to deal with it, this is why DYers should read up on how to do the job they want to do and with Pontiacs it's very easy there are only 3 books out there plus all the news letters and mag. articles from HO racing that I believe are still available from Ken at HO
and in fact as P-dude mentioned good thing the pan was not made after the old design with no hole because it would have caused a problem on the later blocks that don't have a groved rear main cap I do agree that the bes would be to stamp the pans with the late 5 hole design but obviously Tawain manufacturers don't feel this would be cost effective (so yes I do understand something about manufacturing ;) )

Yup - it's clear you're just one of the d-heads in the world. Missed the point completely... maybe you should log off your step Dad's computer.

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Who was the engine builder that installed that pan that leaked?

Was it the stock replacement type pan?

Canton oil pan p/n = 15-450

Local Engine builder, Mike Felt. Been building a variety of motor makes for 20 or more years.

About the tab holes. I have talked to a few guys that ended up welding them shut ???

Thanks for you comments - any positive suggestions/help is what makes this site a good source of information.

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by Jagtec1

I use a Canton pan and a rubber 3 tit rubber seal...some "Right Stuff" dammed up on either side...NOOO leaky! Done it 3 times this way, and not ONE drop.

Thanks for the tip - I'm starting the job tonight. Hopefully can get the car back on the street for some seat time !

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Have installed dozens without issues. But then again I do this for a living. and buying from me gives you the inside info on what to do when installing a pan. And all the available options.

BTW: I have about 200 plus rear pan cork seals I have advertised in the for PY for sale section. Had them cut and made for me.

After this large "lesson" I'm sure I will be an expert on at least sealing this pan:-ohwell:

Just goes to show that there is room for improvent - which is a good thing.

[pro-tour79]

well personal name calling is the last bastion of someone who's intelligence has run out!

[quicksilver97ta]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

hectore3 - What Canton said was to use a thick cork gasket (Butler Pontiac sells them). The gasket will have to be trimmed for length and each end will need to have an angled cut off so that it sits flush on the flat on either side of the radius. then "super glue a thick cork gasket to the block cap (not really sure this is a good Idea - but "Todd the Engineer" at Canton said this "should work"). the thick cork gasket more then likely will need to be "shaped" using a file/etc on the area where the radius terminates on each side of the radius. What you aim for is a uniform compression on the cork gasket along the radius seal. There is a one minute cure black silicone called the right stuff that you can get at any car part store - you needs to add a little of this on the gasket to filling in any small areas. 24 cure. do not over torque your pan bolts. Check out the HHP Magazine article - that will help to. Be patient and take your time ( I bought two cork gaskets up front - just incase I screw up a cut or file to much off)

This is a common problem - not a simple slap it together and go. GOOD LUCK !

Seems like canton would make this info clear in some instructions or notes with the new pan. :rolleyes: Might have saved you a couple of re-installs and time spent talking to Todd. LOL Hope you get her sealed up and on the road.

[screamingchief]

This is a joke,,,right???

I mean Pro-tour is right in the fact that this issue has been around since GM stamped the first pans with the three prong seal,it's the whole reason the 5 prong seal came into existance...

But the diehard pontiac guys laughed at the "engineers" who re-designed the whole deal and said "that's all right,we figured out how to use the 3 prong pans no problemo".

Seems it's overly anal engineers who think they know better that have problems with this stuff.

Why the aftermarket pan core stampers settled on that pan seal design as the "standard" pan core likely has something to do with the fact that GM probably sold the old tooling for those pans outright and that's likely what the aftermaket pan stampers use now,that or they copied that tooling.

As I recall all the replacement GM pans sold up till very recently use the 5 prong rubber seal,so whoever stamps those pans for GM probably still holds the tooling for those pans,and they probably have zero desire to supply cores for the aftermarket pan builders,that or the cores would'nt be cost competitive to the three prong pan cores,simple business economics 101.

I make my own cork seals for my pans,use them regardless of what style of pan goes on there,and what rear cap surface is used,and I never have any leaks.

Just get some .250" thick cork sheet and cut the seals yourself,takes about as long to do that as it takes to read my post,make it about twice as wide as the OE cork rear pan seals and there is simply no way it cant seal when installed with common sense,cut the ends at the proper angle and your done.

Now could canton do more to address that,I dunno I guess they could if they really wanted to,my advice would be to cut a bunch of cork seals like I described and include the damn things with the pan,but they're a business and I guess they feel like that would mean they'd hafta pass that expense on to the customers and that would likely hurt their sales,and after all business is about the bottom line right???

But living in a bubble for years and then lashing out at those who try to explain why others feel this is a non-issue is no better an attitude than canton has shown you.

If you want I have pics of how I make the cork seals,ask nicely and I'll post them.

JMO/FWIW.
:2cents:

[the-rookie]

Well I see Screaming Chief beat me to the punch. I'm running almost the same pan 15-452, no leaks but then again "Ace" installed this one.