[Goatboyjohnny]

Hello everyone, I have a few ?'s about my 65 GTO's Data Plate for anyone who can help? I have everything figured out except a few things. The data plate reads as followed.

O8A X
ST 65-23737 PON 340 BODY
TR 218- B C-C PAINT
W 2WGPT
4F 5N
23 - 1

If I have all this figured out right it should mean.

08A = first week in august 1964
X = ??? Kind of a fancy looking X too or maybe a fancy K, not like the rest of letters.
ST 65-23737 = 65 pontiac Tempest Lemans Hardtop Coupe (no post)
PON = Pontiac MI. assembly plant
340 Body = Fisher Body sequence number
TR 218 - B = Parchment Interior
C-C Paint = Cameo Ivory upper and lower body paint (no two tone or cordova top)
W = Accessory Code for Soft Ray Tinted windsheild
2WGPT = 2 speed Auto, Console, Radio, Power Antenna
4F = Remote Mirror
5N= GTO
23 - 1 = ????

My first couple of questions are wher I have ??'s. Does anyone know what the fancy x or K after the time built code is?? And can anyone tell me what the 23 - 1 at the very bottom of the tag means??
I think I have everything else figured out, if someone knows different from what I have please let me know,, Has anyone ever seen a White on Parchment 65?? that's alot of white, haha..

I do have a couple questions about the sequence number and the last 6 digits in the vin.
First about the 340 body sequence number. Does that mean the 340th A body built at that plant of any body style, or just the 23737 body style? Haven't been able to find that information anywhere. And I know that the last 6 digits in the vin are for V-8 production (it starts with a 1) and that the Pontiac Mi. plant surpassed 300,000 units, and that they produced A and B bodies, but can any one tell me how many A bodies were produced there that year. And lastly does anyone out there know about how many cars were produced at the Pontiac assembly plant in a single day, kinda wonder if this Goat was assembled on the first day of production? Thank you to anyone who can help, hope to hear from you all very soon.

Thanks, Johnny

[Keith Seymore]

Johnny -

Did you get all your questions answered?

I think we have addressed most of these through email, but by way of review:

"X" code - we are still not sure. Theories have ranged from (a) factory lightweight racer (apparently not the case), (b) Pilot line vehicle (also become less likely) and (c) Jim Mattison has suggested it might stand for "Show car Prep - fit and finish (this is a possibility). I now have captured 12 cars, including yours, the bulk of which were built in 08A, a couple in 09A, one 10A and one "19A" (probably a misprint and should be 11A).

23 -1 : again, not sure but probably an internal Fisher body code. Could relate to the fixturing (gating) used to frame up the body. I have seen a number of these which say 17 - 2.

Body number 340: relates to the number of "A" bodies of that configuration (hardtop, in this case). I also have the PHS info for body number 137 and number 246 in my files.

I do not have the number of A bodies produced by the Pontiac plant for the 1965 model year, but if I find it in my notes (or in my correspondence with JohnV) I will let you know.

Daily production could be calculated as follows: during the production year the plant produced between 60 and 70 vehicles per hour. If we use 60 an hour for an 8 hour day that would be 480 units per shift, times two shifts would be 960 vehicles. Times three shifts would be 1440 per work day.

Unfortunately, when speaking of "first day" production, normally the line started slower and ramped up. Also, at the beginning of the model year the second shift workers would be assigned to day shift, to work along side the day shift workers to facilitate training. I do not have any information about the line rate for early August (nor do I have the number of shifts for August of '64) so to assume your car was built on the first day would be speculation on our part. But - your car is definitely an early build.

Talk to you later -

K

[bigpop]

Hey Johnny,sounds like a great car, lots of white/parchment,as you noted. I do remember a '65 3x2 convertible,original owner all white,featured in HPP.or Muscle Car Review,years ago. It was from the north-eastern U.S. as I recall.It was very sharp.
The only drawback.if there is such a thing with GTO's is that the bright work,(Chrome,pot metal,etc.) doesn't stand out quite as much,when contrasted against a white background...I'll get over it!!
The 'X" is of interest,as Keith points out.I saw a 65 HT a couple of weekends ago,at a show.This car had an "x" also,it was built 10A first week of October,Norm J."tripower ''
here at PY,was with me and he actually saw the ''X'' on that cars trim tag.We EMed the find to Keith,as he was keeping track of these cars,as stated before.
Hopefully,some day we all will find out the "X" cars are indeed special cars.Larry Banks

[John V.]

Keith (and Johnny), not all A bodies, the Body No. count was specific to the Model Series (Model Series 37 Lemans in this case). This is an important distinction because the Body Style 37 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe was offered in the Lemans Model Series as well as the Model Series 35 Tempest Custom lineup from what I understand for '65. I'm 99% sure the T.C 2 dr. Hardtop had its own Body No. count.

So this was the 340th '65 Lemans 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe Body Assembly produced at the Fisher Body Plant at the Pontiac, Mich complex. Of course, the other Plants produced their own.

IIRC, the Pontiac Plant surpassed about 260,000 V8s in '65 (VIN sequence reaching up to P360000). They did not surpass 300000 units (VIN sequence would have hit P400000) AFAIK.

I didn't check all the 5 Group codes, but I am pretty confident that Group 2, Code P that was long thought to connect with the Radio option, actually corresponds to the Back-up Lamp option. So far, this has been corroborated by all evidence for '64 and I think would have been same for '65 (Group codes sometimes changed year to year and aren't necessarily same Plant to Plant). Fisher did not install the BU Lamps or the rear bumper, but it is believed that they would have installed specific wiring for the BU Lamps, accounting for the code.

I had studied the 23-1 type codes used by the Pontiac Plant for the '68 Model Year years ago. Never came to any conclusive info except to say that each Model Series & Body Style were "grouped" by the nos. The 1 might mean 1st shift, in '68, you only see 1 or 2. The Lemans Hardtops might all be within a range of 23-27 for example, Catalina 4 dr. sedans might all be in a range of 51-53, and so on. Didn't seem to be any particular rhyme or reason for the numeric associations except that you wouldn't find a Lemans Hardtop with a 53-1 coded for example. Perhaps it was connected to some sort of sequencing within the Fisher Body Plant. I now read Keith's suggestion and that sounds reasonable to me.

In '68, many of these codes also had a letter associated with them, but not all. And the format of the code varied, one might read 1A-35, another might read 35-M1 or 35-2M, or 2-35 or 35-1. Didn't seem to be any consistency, just coded in whatever order the guy felt like it it seemed, sometimes with a letter, sometimes not.

I think Keith might be able to identify the dates of the early '65 MY Strike. Might help you, but probably your car was final assembled before the Strike.

The best way to try to get a handle on the total no. of A bodies produced at a given Plant for '65 is to try to establish the Body No. from very late built cars for each Model Series and Body Style combination. As a decent estimate, you can figure that the Pontiac Plant was producing roughly 40% of all Pontiacs produced during the Model Year with the satellite Plants combining for roughly 60%. I don't know if the totals changed much from '64 to '65, but the 3 satellite Plants producing the Pontiac A bodies in '64 accounted for roughly 30,000 units each with Fremont the highest at roughly 35,000 units. These totals were V8 & 6 cyl combined. My gut says the A body production at the satellite Plants (as a percentage of total A body production and in raw totals) may have increased in '65 but I don't recall ever researching it.

Keith, hadn't heard about the "fit & finish" X code theory. Sounds plausible but how would that jibe with your own car? Perhaps knowledgeable dealers could request "special attention" to fit and finish, maybe for a price or not, for special uses or customers? IIRC, some later '65 builds got numeric characters after the Time Built code. Have you been collecting the data from those also? Could have some sort of connection to the X code. AFAIK, you've only seen the X on GTOs? Unless the X code gets discovered on non-GTOs, I have trouble thinking it isn't specifically related to the GTO in some way. Maybe you've seen it on non-GTOs now, don't think I knew you were up to 12 (hint, hint, time to shoot me a new list?).

[Tom Vaught]

Thought for a bit that the 23-K code on my car might be answered.

What was the 23 supposed to signify, John??

Tom Vaught

[John V.]

Tom, the Data Plate 23-1 type codes mentioned here were only used at the Pontiac Plant. In that context, that code had nothing to do with the car options and equipment.

They would not correspond to codes on the Kansas City Data Plate since this was a Fisher Body-Pontiac Plant specific code that only had meaning to them.

Your '64 KC Data Plate will have Fisher Body 5 Group Trim codes, similar to the ones posted by Johnny.

The codes were divided into 5 Groups and appropriate codes would be listed on the Data Plate.

In '64, KC did not emboss the "1" for Group 1 codes, a typical '64 GTO list might be coded:

E 2GLP 3K 5N

Group 3, Code K in the above string would refer to the Pontiac Sales Code 484 Dome & Reading Lamp option. But since yours is a Convertible, that option was Not Available so would not be coded on your Data Plate.

Since you typed 23-K, I'm assuming you are looking at something else. Please elaborate?

[John V.]

Tom, the code that the Pontiac lady had a big question from your KC Shipping Order was 43K, I think you were thinking of that when you typed 23-K?

The codes in Box 43 continue to stump me.

I have uncovered (3) different codes that commonly get coded in Box 43.

431, 433, and 43K.

Consistently, code 431 seems to indicate the Back-up Lamp option.

I have no real good explanation for code 433 except that the cars I have seen it for had the Back-up Lamp option in combination with the Console. My theory is that KC & Balt coded this specifically for a specific Back-up Lamp option arrangement. But I really was not convinced this made sense.

Code 43K also seemed to be related to the Back-up Lamp option. For sake of argument, my current theory is that code 43K pointed to the Protection Group option. Back-up Lamps were one of the individual options that comprised the Protection Group option, so I theorized that this code signaled that the Back-up Lamps were installed as part of the Protection Group option. I believe the Group options were priced at a discount to the pricing for the individual options that made up the Group so it would have been appropriate for the Plant to identify when options were ordered as part of the Group rather than individually. The Pontiac Plant Manifest coded the Group options in a special Box while also coding them in the individual numeric Boxes. The KC form did not have an equivalent Box to code the Groups, so perhaps they made use of the letter codes to identify them while coding the individual options comprising the Group at the same time.

I was told by Don Keefe that my KC & Balt decode article might be published in Smoke Signals by now. Not sure if he has lost interest in it. I may see if the GTOAA is interested in it.

[Goatboyjohnny]

Thank you to all who have replied, and to Performance Years for this great forum. Here's what my build sheet from PHS tells me.

GTO option
Radio - Pushbutton & Electric Antenna
Windshield Washer & Dual Speed Wipers
Mirror, Vanity
Mirror, Inside Tilt
Mirror, Outside Remote Control
Deluxe Wheel Discs
Lamps - Back Up
Power Steering
Power Brakes
Glass, Soft Ray - Windshield Only
Console
Tire Option - 7.75 x 14 White
Transmission - Automatic - Code J
Color Code - C - Cameo Ivory
Interior Trim Code - 218-3E - Parchment & Black
YS 335 hp 389 4 bbl
Differential - K- 3.23 - Std. Code WF

The 'charge to dlr' code is 07155 - Anyone know what dlr that is ??
Invoice Date is 9-21-64
And the vin shows me it was one of the first 1700 or so V8's produced.

I guess I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for castings from july of 64, sound about right ? Once again thank you to everyone, hope to hear from you all very soon.

Johnny

[Goatboyjohnny]

Have a ? for you K, when you say 'show car prep, fit and finish' does that mean 'show car' as in possibly for some sort of motorama, or other show that would have include the Pontiac lineup as a whole, and include samples of all models in various trim/option levels ? Just curious on the cars history, seems like it was ordered without alot of performance in mind. Thank you again.

Johnny

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith (and Johnny), not all A bodies, the Body No. count was specific to the Model Series (Model Series 37 Lemans in this case). This is an important distinction because the Body Style 37 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe was offered in the Lemans Model Series as well as the Model Series 35 Tempest Custom lineup from what I understand for '65. I'm 99% sure the T.C 2 dr. Hardtop had its own Body No. count.

So this was the 340th '65 Lemans 2 dr. Hardtop Coupe Body Assembly produced at the Fisher Body Plant at the Pontiac, Mich complex. Of course, the other Plants produced their own.

As usual, your answer is a bit more thorough and a lot more accurate.

This is also relevant to the "first day build" discussion. The line would have been full of not only A bodies but other styles as well, which would push the build of this car farther back.

Originally Posted by John V.

I think Keith might be able to identify the dates of the early '65 MY Strike. Might help you, but probably your car was final assembled before the Strike.

We've discussed this before and our dates (yours and mine) were off by about a week. The only explanation I have is that there may have been pockets of local strike activity in the Pontiac area prior to when a nation wide UAW strike would have taken place (ie, the second week of September 1964). In any event our car, an 09A build, was hustled to completion so that we could retrieve it before it was trapped on property so it is very likely that this car (an 08A build) was completed well before the strike.

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, hadn't heard about the "fit & finish" X code theory. Sounds plausible but how would that jibe with your own car? Perhaps knowledgeable dealers could request "special attention" to fit and finish, maybe for a price or not, for special uses or customers? IIRC, some later '65 builds got numeric characters after the Time Built code. Have you been collecting the data from those also? Could have some sort of connection to the X code. AFAIK, you've only seen the X on GTOs? Unless the X code gets discovered on non-GTOs, I have trouble thinking it isn't specifically related to the GTO in some way. Maybe you've seen it on non-GTOs now, don't think I knew you were up to 12 (hint, hint, time to shoot me a new list?).

Yes - this was new to me as well, per a recent note from BigPop to Jim Mattison. Seems reasonable; my car was ordered by Jesse and so it may have gotten a "Show car prep" code by default. However, it certainly didn't get a show car paint job! The fit and finish on my car is terrible!

Yes - there are some later cars showing up with the code; all A bodies (GTO and Lemans but no big cars). Per your request, I have sent an updated list to your email.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Goatboyjohnny

Have a ? for you K, when you say 'show car prep, fit and finish' does that mean 'show car' as in possibly for some sort of motorama, or other show that would have include the Pontiac lineup as a whole, and include samples of all models in various trim/option levels ? Just curious on the cars history, seems like it was ordered without alot of performance in mind. Thank you again.

Johnny

It could be any and/or all of the above: ranging from a Chicago Auto show/Detroit Auto show vehicle all the way down to as mundane a usage as sitting in the lobby of one of the local GM buildings or special prep for a VIP customer.

I do agree that, as we document more and more of these cars, they seem to be highly contented, with interesting color combinations, vinyl tops, etc. Not in line with what you would expect for a race car.

Incidently, today we send show cars directly to the Milford Proving Ground where they are either wet sanded or stripped right down and repainted. I did drive a primered pre-production marketing Volt the other day where the glass was taped in to help facilitate the repaint process at Milford. FWIW -

K

[tripower]

John, I've been trying to figure out those lower Pontiac data plate codes as well. I have about 20 - 65 PON A-Body plant codes but only 7 are unique: 16, 17, 19, 25, 27, 45 and 4222 (weird). Since it seems the second number was the shift (1, 1W, 2), it makes sense they were tracking what line and shift the body was going down at Fisher body.

[Keith Seymore]

Johnny -

I need to verify a piece of data, which I will do via PM.

K

[bigpop]

I love this stuff,just like archeology in a sense. I do not want to hijack the thread,but I do have a question for John V. or Keith.

On my 65 GTO,there is a number on the driver's side cowl,on the side.(hope this is the correct terminology) where the left fender fits.there is plainly a 344 in white grease pencil. Does anyone know what this number signifies? It is nowhere else on the Trim Tag,or firewall,etc?? I assume a Fisher Body marking. thanks guys Larry B.

[Goatboyjohnny]

k, I believe you are correct, I'll have to check for you tonight, how does that correspond with the rest of the X cars? Any idea on the dealer code? Thanks again.

Johnny

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Goatboyjohnny

k, I believe you are correct, I'll have to check for you tonight, how does that correspond with the rest of the X cars? Any idea on the dealer code? Thanks again.

Johnny

Falls right in line. There is a little bit of minor shuffling, becaused the cars were not invoiced in VIN order, but overall it falls where it should.

No luck on the dealer code - sorry 'bout that.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by bigpop

I love this stuff,just like archeology in a sense. I do not want to hijack the thread,but I do have a question for John V. or Keith.

On my 65 GTO,there is a number on the driver's side cowl,on the side.(hope this is the correct terminology) where the left fender fits.there is plainly a 344 in white grease pencil. Does anyone know what this number signifies? It is nowhere else on the Trim Tag,or firewall,etc?? I assume a Fisher Body marking. thanks guys Larry B.

Could it be your build sequence number? Do you have a different number on the firewall that you think is your build sequence number?

If so, it was just a "random" sequential number representing the build, starting with 0001 and working it's way up to 999 and then starting over (ie, it does not represent the number built that day).

As an aside, I am redoing my '87 Chevy pickup. I found, coincidently, the number "87" on the radiator support, grille, inside the bumpers, etc. It must have been number 87 in the sequence (I don't think it represents the model year because it was not built early in the year).

[John V.]

Johnny, I have nothing for 07-155 except what I'm sure you already know, 07 is the Pontiac, Mich Zone. Presumably, PHS will identify the Dealer for the price of the Repro Window Sticker although it is not clear to me if their list is Date specific, ie., whether they know the name and address of the Dealership on the date your car was shipped to the Dealer or if they have a list that might be circa 1970 and is assumed correct for any MY. Dealerships changed Ownership, Dealer Name, and Location, not necessarily with a change of Dealer No.

Norm J., when I studied '68, I collected many more unique nos. Based on what I discovered, you might find many more also if you collected data from some of the more rare models, like Station Wagons, 4 dr. Sedans, etc.

From my '68 list:

10, 11, 12, 16, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, 31, 42, 43, 50, 51, 52, 57, 60, 63

Quite frankly, I'd bet from at least 10 thru 63, all the nos. were possible.

I had forgotten this, but it looks like they were usually specific to the Body Style and A Body or B Body. They were not further subdivided within the A or B Body lines by Model Series.

The A Body Hardtops were assigned Nos. between 10 & 29 or so. The A Body Convertibles seem to have been 50, 51, or 52. By style, all cars were assigned a "spot" within their specific range of nos., no other style car was assigned a "spot" with that no. There are maybe a couple exceptions that I found, I recorded a rare Bonneville Wagon with a 12, usually an A Body Hardtop no.

The biggest exception, aside from the haphazard formatting of the code mentioned earlier, lots of cars did NOT get a code for this on the Data Plate at all. Perhaps they were still assigned a "spot", just didn't get coded on the Data Plate.

Most also got a letter within the code, lots with M, but other letters also used. Two I found with two letters, both SC, 10-1SC and 26-1SC.

Don't know for how long the Pontiac Plant used this code system, but it was also in use in '64.

Not to say that the X code can't represent a possible Show Car/Special Fit & Finish, but I know Keith is logging the Invoice Nos. as well. The Invoice No. will give a good indication of when PMD actually sold the car to the Dealer. A very low Invoice No. means that the car was not owned by PMD for long. Doesn't mean the car could not have been exhibited at some local show by the Dealer but less likely that it was exhibited at a major show where I suspect the cars exhibited would not have been cars already sold to the Dealer.

A car that was Invoiced (by Invoice No.) well after it was built could be an indication that it was kept in the Pontiac fleet and served as a Show Car or it might simply mean the car was produced for Zone Stock and sat unsold at a Zone Stock storage facility for a time.

Keith, I had forgotten about our discussion regarding the Strike dates. But I agree, given your VIN and Johnny's approx. VIN, I think Johnny's car was surely completed at least several days before yours and shipped before the Strike.

Johnny, I've asked Keith if Pontiac Plant Time Built codes showing other than week "A" were assigned during the first months of '65. At the moment, looks like perhaps not. My thought is that if they were not, 08A may not be quite so early as you are imagining.

For that reason, plus the fact that I suspect there may have been no more than 10-14 production days between the date Keith's was final assembled and when yours was (possibly just around 9/1/64) based on the VIN, I'm thinking Aug. cast dates (in addition to July, if they exist) would be very reasonable for your engine.

Just a shade easier to find, but not much!

[zbuickman]

John V. for what its worth the grease pencil on mine is 54....as well as my "X" car did PHS as a Lemans...still hanging out to find verdict on the "X"

[John V.]

Brent, your post prompted me to go back and review some info you provided to me 6 months ago. I hope I'm not saying anything inappropriate, but Johnny, based on very specific info, I am now 95% certain of the time frame your car was built.

This first part I had forgotten and is the important part.

It has been pretty well established that '65 Final Assembly Production began at the Pontiac Plant on Aug. 24. As Keith mentioned, at first the line speed was very slow and gradually sped up as kinks were worked out.

Info collected from P-O-Ps and your approx. VIN tells me your car was final assembled no later than Sept. 1 but most likely on or about Aug. 31 (a Monday) or perhaps Aug. 28 or Aug. 29 depending on whether Saturday was a Production Day on the Final Line.

So you can definitely use Aug cast engine parts dated at least as late as Aug. 27.

As far as the X is concerned, I too hope Keith finds the holy grail to answer this!