[Bull]

A second question for me today.

I love my old home, but as old homes often are, mine is not all square and level and plumb. I am preparing to install some crown molding in my kitchen, but there are some areas where there is a fairly significant dip in the middle portion of the ceiling. So, at least two of the long moldings going across the top of the room will have to be more of an arc than a straight line. My question is whether, given the relatively thin and lightweight nature of crown molding, I will be able to exert pressure on it as I nail to get it into the shape that I want, so it is tight against the ceiling as it traces the arc? Or, is it fairly rigid stuff that promises to make the job difficult for me?

[surfnuke9]

depends what it as made of as to the amount it will forgive. hardwood - little / softwoods - fairly forgiving / fingerjointed or solid but as long as it isnt TOO severe, you should be able to run the crown along it.

If you are painting the crown, another option would be to allow some small amount of gap and fill with painters caulk. Either way, being that your from MA you will most likely need to address shirnkage over the winter months at anyway. My wood work always opens up some when it get real dry.

[Bull]

Thank you very much for your reply, it was very helpful.

Just so I know, how thick can you apply painter's caulk before being considered a talentless hack? I know that even a pro might use it for small gaps, but what is the dividing line between acceptable and total butchery?

[Bill Eveland]

I think up to an 1/8" would be acceptable at least for me anyway. I've also ran into unsquare corners I had to drop down the meeting point down 1/4". I filled the corner in with joint compound and brought the ceiling down mean filling in to match the crown moulding. I suppose in a bad spot in the middle you could do the same , if you painting it anyway it easier to cover it up. .

Dave, do you have lathe and plaster or drywall? Finding studs are alot harder as you can imagine in lathe and plaster. I don't nail crown moulding to the ceiling, only the walls.

[surfnuke9]

the trick is that you are trying to split the difference between the uneven wall/ceiling interface with the long (notionally straight) crown molding to create an optical illusion

leaving some of a gap between the crown and the ceiling helps create the optical illusion that the interface is straight as well.

trimming the crown to fit an uneven wall/ceiling interface is VERY noticeable on the long run since that side of the crown will have a varying thickness.

corners are best handled by cutting the compound angle on one piece, running the other stright into the wall and back-cutting the other face to fit the piece run to the corner. This worked very well for me in the past.

Check this topic out on the this old house site or new yankee workshop.

Norm Abrams and the other carpenter they use has detailed instruvtions on this method.

[fiedlerh]

I agree with the caulking method and have used it. I've also heard of people having to do plaster work to correct severe problems. I've also used drywall compound to fix small gaps since it's so easy to sand.

I think MDF or plastic molding would be the most flexible.

I like to make wood triangles out of scrap and use them for backing the crown. They are easy to make. Rip a piece of scrap to the right height, set your miter saw to the crown's spring angle and you can quickly make a bucket full. Make them about a 1/16" undersize so the crown fits snugly.

Just nail them to each place where there is a wall stud, mark the locations with a small piece of painter's tape, and you are good to go. This prevents putting multiple nail holes in your crown when you can't get it to stay in place. If you can get the triangle to nail up firmly, then the crown will stay attached to it.

I bought a couple of angle gauges from http://www.compoundmiter.com/ that were very handy. If you've done crown molding before and have a compound miter saw, skip the book.

Remember to glue every butt joint and corner to prevent the joints from opening up. Just use regular wood glue.

[fyrffytr1]

Consider floating out the ceilings with joint compound if the belly is really noticeable. If mitering the corners is a problem you could use decorative blocks and run the crown straight into them. Also, if any walls are over 16' long you will have to join(splice) the crown to continue the run. Again, decorative blocks can alleviate that problem. Just divide the lenght of any wall over 16'(under 32') by 2 and place the block centered on that point or pick a point that lines up with a feature on the wall below.
I was always taught to cut crown upside down and backwards. The backwards part wasn't too hard but, when I stood on my head I couldn't see where I was making my cuts!

[sdbob]

One way we have used for those highs and lows,try cutting out the back so the front sits flat its a pain but if you want it flat its an option.You need 2 people to adjust.The miters in the corners also will be affected when you have these 'twists'. We have mitred the corners ,another way is to straight cut one piece on both ends then 'cope' the pieces coming into it.What I mean by cope is to cut the mitre on a 45 (again the angle may vary)then take a coping saw and just cut along the mitre but at a back angle then this piece will fit into the straight cut piece.It takes finness to get it right but when dealing with not perfect square walls it does work.My fathe could do it in one try,I usually had short pieces that I used as templates. Remember it is what you are willing to 'live with' and you are only going to do it once. Bob

[allpawl]

Just follow the arc it will flex just fine. I have done this dozens of times in old and new homes. I am a contractor.

[The Boss]

Do not mitre the corners, you will never get them to fit!

Cope the corners and if you are using a crown that is less than 4.5" in profile width you should be able to flex it up to the ceiling. I've been doing a 1 piece 7.5" profile in most of the houses lately, and it is so unforgiving it would make you sick!

As far as how much caulk makes you a hack? That all depends upon what day of the week it is, before or after lunch with Jeremy, and if you like the people you are doing the work for!

[ponjohn]

Chris-

The 1st and 3rd rooms you pictured...what is that type of ceiling called? It is awesome.

[carcrazy]

I agree with The Boss. The corner angles are rarely true. Coping does take a little practice! "Caulk and Paint make a Carpenter what he ain't"

[techteacher5561]

ponjohn,
I believe those are called "trayed" ceilings. definately takes a bit of time and a bunch of moulding!
Nice though.
Howard

[fiedlerh]

Those are really nice coffered ceilings. I hope the Boss is nice enough to give some pointers on that type of work. I'm thinking about it for my living room. Fine Homebuilding had an article describing how they recommend making the coffers in the workshop an then nailing each assembly up. Sound good in theory, but I don't know how well that would work in the real world since rooms are seldom perfectly square and neither is drywall.

[The Boss]

John, fiedlerh is right - they are coffered ceilings. The tray ceilings we do have a simple single box in the center with squared or angled sides. We did a tray in the master bedroom in that same house.

Fiedlerh, there are a lot of different ways you can do them, but I've found the easiest is to frame the grid out with 2x material and then have the sheetrockers wrap all of it. I then run the crown around inside each of the boxes, then around the perimeter of the room.

One of the tricks I've found is to not have the tapers tape the ceiling to the sides inside the boxes - just cover the nail holes. the problem has been that the mud is thicker in the corners then in the centers. With each of those boxes having a leg around 4' long, you can't make up the difference, even if it's a 1/16th it will throw you off. Since the crown will cover the joint anyways, there is no need to tape it. The other trick is to make sure you are dead on in your layout and DON'T use any hangers! The hangers will make your connection fatter when it's covered with sheetrock and will throw off your crown.

Nice huh? Did you notice the electrical outlets cut into the baseboard too?

[bluebeast]

never, never bend the molding to the ceiling you will notice it from 10 miles away lol. It's better to bring the ceiling down to the the crown.I'm a painter by trade and it's our job to make carpenters look good.Beautifull ceilings though. Anything over 3/8 you should use concrete fill first or plaster,finish off with drywall mud,much easier to sand.Sounds like a lot of work but it will worth it in the end. Just my 2 cents worth.

[OhMyGoat]

Any kind of remodeling on an older home many times is less talent and more illusion. Just try to make it look good with a casual glance. If anyone leans in to take a close look, just do what my Dad told me. Kick them in the rear end.

[fiedlerh]

Boss, I see from the pix how you do yours. Nice work! Mine is a retrofit on a smaller scale, so the grid will be made entirely of lumber. As you know, once you get rolling on crown, it gets easier especially if the the corners are square in all directions. Fine Homebuilding can get a bit esoteric at times.

Before I get to it I have 2 bathrooms to remodel and hardwood flooring for the upstairs. No wonder I never get a chance to work on my car.

I like the baseboard outlets. I like to tell electricians that wall switches used to be high up so kids wouldn't F with the lights, but now the thought is they should be around 36" so kids can reach them without having to call mom or dad.

[Bull]

Looks like you do real nice work, Boss. I guess I'm not surprised, though, I had that feeling anyway.

I am not sure that I mind if the crown is noticeably arced, rather than spending a lot of time making the ceiling level just for straight trim. The house is old and not perfect. The work my wife and I did in this kitchen is far from perfect, and we do see every flaw. But, we're proud of what we've learned and how good it all looks to us, especially if you saw what we started with

[dreamingmuscle]

Originally Posted by bluebeast

never, never bend the molding to the ceiling you will notice it from 10 miles away lol. It's better to bring the ceiling down to the the crown.I'm a painter by trade and it's our job to make carpenters look good.Beautifully ceilings though. Anything over 3/8 you should use concrete fill first or plaster,finish off with drywall mud,much easier to sand.Sounds like a lot of work but it will worth it in the end. Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree with bluebeast here. You will notice the arch on the wall if you bend it. I have filled non structural gaps up to 1/2 inch with caulk. It takes several coats but does work. I use a razor blade out of my utility knife to shape it around trim cuts like where the trim guys cut too much of the bottom of door molding. A small bucket of water and a piece a old tshirt for a rag is your best friend with caulk. keep your fingers wet when smoothing it a wipe any access before it dry's

Glen