[Malky]

I called Continental about installing a 3000 stall Jim Hand t/c, which is non-lockup, in my Bowtie tranny, which has a lockup t/c. The tech said I need to install a valve in the tranny to stop fluid flow through the t/c. He was a bit vague where this valve goes. Can anyone confirm this?

The tech also told me the 200-4R gets its OD just by locking the t/c up, which kind of made me wonder about the accuracy of the valve information .

[Cliff R]

The non lock-up valve replaces the TCC apply valve in the pump. You also must remove the check ball in the front of the input shaft.

TCC function is independent of transmission gear changes. Some units are set up to lock the TCC as early as second gear, some in 3rd and OD, some just in OD......Cliff

[Malky]

He told me Transgo sold the valve. I just found it on their web site, part # 7-CCV, so I owe him an apology (except for the bit about the OD coming from the TCC lockup which was just plain wrong). So I have to pull the tranny and get a tranny shop to install/remove these parts? That complicates things a bit.

[Cliff R]

The transmission doesn't have to come out to install the valve, but it has to be pushed back some and the torque converter removed to access the check ball/capsule in the front of the input shaft.

He may have just been confused, as a lot of units are set-up so that the TCC doesn't apply until the transmission makes the shift into OD. This is usually accomplished by wiring the TCC solenoid through or grounding it with a normally "open" 4th gear pressure switch.

I've tried using a TCC for retrofits into older cars, and like the non L/U deal a LOT better. A high quality torque converter with efficient characteristics is required, but the whole deal makes using OD's in older vehicles much easier......Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

So Cliff, you would suggest then to go non-lock-up over a lock-up in a 2004R? I have to admit, the converter is the one thing on my BTO that I feel lacks, and have been considering changing it. One concern I have is that at @70mph on the highway, I'm only turning like 1800 RPM, and a non-lock-up would run hot or wear faster with any kind of a stall above that. Or am I missing something?

[Cliff R]

I tried both in my 67 Impala SS (4L60 with 3.31 rear gears). Started out with a custom L/U unit, stalled about 2400rpm's, rpm's at 70 were about 2200 with the TCC applied. I ran it that way for several months, then BOOM, lunched the converter and it pumped enough needle bearings thru the trans to require a complete rebuiding.

I used a ported vacuum switch/brake pedal switch/grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch deal to operate the TCC. It worked fine, unlocked at heavy/full throttle, and when coasting. I didn't really like it much, as it would "lug" the engine in 4th gear at low vehicle speeds, and clunked in and out like a factory TCC cruising around 35-50mph when we were on and off the throttle.

I replaced the L/U converter with a custom built 2400rpm with no TCC, and absolutely LOVED it. It was very well coupled for "normal" driving, and barely any rpm increase at any speed in 4th noticable over the L/U unit. Have some torque multiplication in 4th gear at lower vehicle speeds was a BIG plus over the L/U converter, which typically required enough throttle opening to unlock it to get the heavy Impala back up to speed without shifting back into 3rd. No switches, no wiring, no thumping/clunking in and out of L/U, better everyplace, IMHO.

I didn't even run a cooler with it, just in the factory replacement radiator. Ran it that way over 35,000 miles before selling the car, averaged 18-24 mpg's, and never once missed the L/U deal......FWIW.....Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

And who would you recommend for a 2004R non-lock-up converter? I too would like a 'tight' 2400-2600, and wonder what a good one would cost. I spray, so would prefer an anti-balloon plate.

[Cliff R]

Continental has been making all of the converters we sell. I've only sold half a dozen of their 10" units for non-LU OD applications, so far, no complaints, no problems......Cliff

[Malky]

I also don't like the l/u 2400 rpm converter he BTO tranny came with. 4th gear engages at a low speed. I could live with that, but it then immediately locks up (4th gear TCC switch) and the engine lugs.
So it sounds like I can install the Continental 3000 t/c with the TCC valve and check ball mods, without too much slippage and overheating when cruising at 2500 rpm.
Why do the mods have to be done? I have heard of people running a 200-4R with the TCC not functioning, ie no l/u, with no problem.

[Cliff R]

Something to do with fluid flow to the converter and possibly the transmission internals. I never took time to study an oil flow diagram for those transmission, we just install the valve when we build them, and have had zero issues in any area running them without a TCC.

We have even set them up with low stall converters for trucks in towing applications, without overheating problems. Some builders/shops speculate that the units will overheat if the TCC doesn't apply when towing. I can't see that happening up you use an efficient converter in the first place, designed for heavy load/low stall applications.....Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

So do I call Continental direct for a quote on a 2600-2800 non-LU w/ anti-balloon plate? Or is that something you can quote? (By the way, your PM mailbox is full).

[Steve C.]

Cliff's comment regarding a lock up converter - "I didn't really like it much, as it would "lug" the engine in 4th gear at low vehicle speeds, and clunked in and out like a factory TCC cruising around 35-50mph when we were on and off the throttle."

I have a similar situation. My 200-4R is set it up so the converter will only lock up in overdrive. Also installed is a electronic torque converter lock-up controler made by Ron Francis Wiring that I can switch on and off. This system locks up the converter at a set speed and unlocks it when the signal generator senses the vehicle speed is below lock up speed or when the brakes are applied. This unit is set to lock the converter at 42-47 MPH and can be adjusted if necessary. At 70 mph out on the open highway at about about 2100 rpm when locked up, all is fine and if I want to accelerate some with the amount of torque from my 505cid combo its not a big issue. However when I get much below 55-60 mph or so I can now feel it "lug" around a bit, and it will have that tendency to clunk like a stick car with my big cam. My motor makes its peak torque at 4400 rpm. So I find myself driving around at lower speeds with the unit not locked up, it's sure a lot smoother and the additional 200 or so rpms it adds has not presented a cooling issue for my set-up. That said, I have a large 19-row stacked plate design transmission oil cooler installed.

As of late I seem to have an issue with what seems to be slipping during the 2nd to 3rd gear shift. My car is currently in John's shop having a new exhaust system frabricated and installed so we are going to pull the 200-4R trans out and have it checked. While at the transmission shop I'm having it converted to a non-lock up unit. And he is exchanging the lock-up converter for a similar stall non-lock up type. Since I have already paid once for a converter I'll give it a try from him, if I don't like it I will give Cliff a call and make arrangements to get a converter from Continental. Cliff supplied a Continental non-lock up converter for a local friends 200-4R transmission and he is very pleased. And I have had previous experiance with a Contential unit before on my TH400 transmission with fantastic results, like so many others.

[Malky]

My new BTO 200-4R would slip on the 2-3 shift under WOT acceleration. I fixed it by adding a pint of fluid. I figure the fluid level was a bit low, letting the pump suck air under hard acceleration.

[HWYSTR455]

Actually, mine slipped on the 2-3 shift from being low too initially. I bought another dip stick & tube, closely measured it all out, and it went away.

Well, I'm going to look hard at the non-lockup converters, and will probably go to one in the near future. I'm needing to get this thing on the road for a number of reasons, mainly to make space for other projects. I'll drive it a bit more, and if I get fed up with it, certainly will switch the converter out sooner than later.

Thanks all for the input, appreciate it. Amazing what I've picked up here on the forums!

[smittyseng]

I have been building 200r4 and 700r4 transmissions since the early 90's,as far as "speculation" as to a non-lock up torque convertor damaging a transmission when towing,the success of a non-lock up convertor depends on alot of variables. I have seen PLENTY of overdrive transmissions with melted geartrain from attemting to run a non-lock up clutch on the street and I have other customers where it has never been a issue. First you have to understand the oil flow,oil goes thru the torque convertor (yes-the transgo valve is a must along with removing the input check valve) and this is where the most heat is generated. It then goes thru the cooler and then flows directly to the return port which flows to the planetary gears/sprags etc. A nice tight convertor that doesn't generate much slip over stock with a giant oil cooler combined with low rear end gears is the ideal set-up. On the oppposite end of the spectrum,a heavy car with tall rear end gears with a stock cooler will almost always end in destruction especially with a high wind load,low cruising speed,towing use,large vehicle frontal area etc. What happens is the vehicle goes down the road at lets say 55-60 mph,with a 3.42 or even lower numerical gear it would cruise at 1500-1800 rpm's in overdrive IN LOCK UP,without lock up the torque convertor will stall closer to its rated stall point,lets say 2200-2500,the oil temp starts to creep up slowly on a long,steady drive until it reaches a point where it no longer provides a good lubrication film/lubrication boundary to the overdrive gears/overdrive sprag and the parts start to overheat and self destruct. I steer my customers away from non-lockup set-ups for these kind of applications-high profile vehicles like trucks,suvs etc, cars that are driven alot for highway cruising with less then a 3.73 gear,convertors that are rated any higher then a typical 2000 stall unless just driven occasionally around town (I think your typical 2400 stall continetal convertor is built from a factory 2000 stall core like the grand nationals,vettes,4.3 vortecs etc use-the stators in them will typically give around 2400-2500 stall behind most v-8's). If you do choose to run this set-up on the street and you have a heavier vehicle not running 4.11-3.73 etc gears,do yourself a favor and install a transmission temp gauge,preferably in the pan,Smitty

[HWYSTR455]

Well, the car in question, is my daily driver, stop & go traffic, and I take several 1000+ mile trips a year. Many daily trips and weekend trips see 30-45 min of 70+. It's @3850 lbs, 3.73 rear, aluminum rad with cooler, plus the largest stack plate cooler B&M makes. Would you say this application is 'safe' for a non-lockup? I need at least 2400 stall, due to the cam selected, prefer 2600-2800.

[bdrac]

since putting my car back on pump gas ,lower compression ,milder solid roller, 200 4r 3.50 gears nonlockup 3200 stall continental convertor,10.3 compression,it run cool temps ,160-170 engine, 150 transand desent highway mileage,13-15mpg. got the convertor fromcliff,could not be happier.

[TTS]

IMHO the converter clutch is the most important benefit of installing an OD in a performance street car.

If you aren't going to use it, install a TH400 w/ a Gear Venders unit, it makes no sense not to.

[smittyseng]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Well, the car in question, is my daily driver, stop & go traffic, and I take several 1000+ mile trips a year. Many daily trips and weekend trips see 30-45 min of 70+. It's @3850 lbs, 3.73 rear, aluminum rad with cooler, plus the largest stack plate cooler B&M makes. Would you say this application is 'safe' for a non-lockup? I need at least 2400 stall, due to the cam selected, prefer 2600-2800.

Depends on what kind of temps the trans ends up running,you are probably safe,you don't want to see trans temp over 250 degrees,preferably225 or less cruising,Smitty

[smittyseng]

Originally Posted by bdrac

since putting my car back on pump gas ,lower compression ,milder solid roller, 200 4r 3.50 gears nonlockup 3200 stall continental convertor,10.3 compression,it run cool temps ,160-170 engine, 150 transand desent highway mileage,13-15mpg. got the convertor fromcliff,could not be happier.

With the 3200 stall what kind of rpm do you see in overdrive vs 3rd gear? I could see your car benefiting from the lower first/2nd gear but I would expect your convertor to slip at about the same rpm in overdrive that it would run in 3rd gear ( calulating a 26" tire at 60 mph gives you a 2750 cruise in 3rd gear,1850 rpm cruise in overdrive). With the .67 overdrive ratio and 3.55 gears you end up with a final drive ratio the same as a 2.34-1 ,no matter how effiecient your convertor is if it stalls to 3200 and your overdrive gearing puts your rpm's at 1850 cruising at 60 the convertor will just constantly stall somewhere between,I would even expect the convertor to be slipping slightly in 3rd gear. Now,would lock up make it run better,probably not because it would hold your rpm's solid at 1850 cruising which would probably stifle your motor and make your car lug miserably,Smitty