[slowgto]

Interesting convertible. I remember seeing another yellow convert discussed here a couple years ago, but I think that one was a four speed, in better shape. That block stamp looks fishy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-...3756.m14.l1308

[The Boss]

Fishy is being kind!

[SWEETJUDGE]

SCARY MORE LIKE IT

[1969 Ram Air]

That is one weak attempt at a block restamping.

[UPC-WU2]

Yeah scary!
He has a clear Indiana title, but he is in Alabama?

[The Boss]

Did they use star rivets on the tags in 70?

[RicksGTO]

yes, they used rosette rivets in '70. The rivets seem normal looking to me, but they must have let a 4 year old pick the font type and size for the stamping of the YZ. The partial VIN on the block looks more normal though? Scary deal overall...

[Dar]

If you look closely at a "supersize " picture it looks like the factory YZ stamp is there, but then somebody stamped over it with this incorrect and larger stamp.

The crappy photos do nothing to show this car, I wonder if that was intentional...

[Silver Judge]

Remember when somebody posted something about another car being more rough than a night in jail ?

This reminds me of that, I think I'd rather spend a night in jail, and get in a fight or two with other inmates while I'm there than have to deal with this thing here.

[Larry P]

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

SCARY MORE LIKE IT

So is the price already

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Larry P

So is the price already

15k are you kidding?

The tags and trans are worth that!

I've seen less go for a lot more!

[bop-restoration]

Hi everyone,

I have had to chime in on here. The block has not been tampered with and to prove this we will document the timing cover being removed and will measure the face of the front main cap and the front face of the block, including center and each side of the face to prove no cutting has been done. We welcome anyone willing to bid on this car to come and check the car out. I am willing to prove this car being exactly what it is, a rough ultra rare car, with the original drive train present.

We all have opinions on all the cars on ebay etc etc. We have all seen scam artists in action. This is not a scam, and we can prove it.

Response to some of the things mentioned on here.

The pictures were the best we could take at the moment, we will take better ones later this week, there are also about 200 more on my website, also a 3 min long video of the car. I only want registered ebay users to view the pics on the website, so respond via ebay and i will give the user name and password out that way. I don't want 50k viewers and having endless numbers of comments from people that have no intention on bidding.


Why is it listed as being in AL, while it has an Indiana title?
I live in Alabama and Indiana. The car is in central Indiana, and yes it is under camera surveillance. When i listed the car last night, i didn't realize it brought up the AL zip code on the auction. I sell from both locations, but this car is Indiana.

The car has a clear Indiana title with actual 104k miles stated on it as being actual by the state of Indiana. We have a color photo copy of the old title that was issued in 1978. The new title has the old Indiana title number stated on it. So there is some traceability, this is not a car washed through Broadway title.

We will attempt to make some photos of the frame part number and the frame VIN number.

We will also make photos of the axle tube stampings.

We will also make photos of the transmission vin stamping


HISTORY

Here is the scoop on the car's history as we know of it.

We bought the car from the 2nd owners, we stumbled upon this car around 1984. When we bought this car it was located in a country setting outside of Greencastle Indiana. This car was sitting on a hill in a front yard of a house, there were a few other cars sitting in death row as well. We bought this car and then got our money back. Then a few months later my father went back and bought it again and had it hauled home. We didn't have our own trailer back in the day and the car didn't have the keys with it, and the steering wheel was turned sharply, making it near impossible to load it on a trailer. But we ended up getting a wrecker from Ray Rudd Pontiac in Frankfort Indiana to haul it home.

We bought it for the rarity of it being a Ram Air III car and an automatic, convertible. We had at that time found the first print of the Lil GTO Book. Back in the 80's, that book was one of the only sources that had any information on these GTO's. In that book it stated that it was one of 114 1970 GTO Ram Air III Automatic convertibles that were made.

We had the car for approx. 1 year, before realizing it was a Judge. Yes we didn't know it. Some of you newbies not knowing how it was in the 80's, are spouting off about now and thinking how the fk could you not know. Well, the seller didn't tell us, and there were no stripes, no spoiler , no glove box door emblem, nothing on this car that would identify it as a Judge. Someone had stole some of the parts off of it. And back in the 80's there wasn't much info out there, and the hype was just starting. One night while working on a true VOE car that is still family owned, i discovered the signs, three holes in the glove box and the striping residue in the passenger door jamb. I had been studying the wiring routing under the dash upside down. and those three holes stood out so clear while in that position. We had a few weeks prior wrote to Pontiac for the build sheets on all of our cars. 2-3 days after discovering the signs the build sheet had arrived in the mail and we were so surprised that it was the real deal. If we would have just looked at the rust on the car, you can clearly see the areas that were sanded down and painted over. We have pics of the original trunk lid as well, the spoiler holes were filled and spray canned over just like all the striping was.


We later had found out by a customer that lived in Veedersburg Indiana area. That the first owner was a 17-18 old highschool girl, yes a lucky girl that got this car as a graduation present from her parents. This customer of mine later came back as promised with a Polaroid he took of her standing next to it, in the school parking lot. WOW!!!!

We have since held the car inside and under lock and key. Only telling a hand full of people over the years, one being Paul Zazarine, who took about a hundred photos of the VOE car back in Ohio during the 86 GTO nationals.

I have met a few people online that have had these bench seat cars we all know they are extremely rare. This car also has the trunk release option, the original blue button is still in the glove box. The original glove box door is still in the car also, which inside i am sure are the clips of the emblem.

If anyone wants to know more about the condition or if anyone wants to view the car. Call me, email me. I will be able to attend to any viewing this week. You must be a registered ebayer to view the car and have a good feedback standing.

Sincerely
Jason
B.O.P. Restoration
317 374 7105 leave a message in no answer
[email protected]

ebay user name bop-restoration

[Tellyshavilli]

Good car and good luck .

[Black hills thunder]

there is no question that it has had some stamping done on the YZ, but if the vin # looks good it would clear things up a bunch! hard to tell with the rest of the vin being blocked if anything has been done there,but you cannot blame a guy for covering it up!

[1969 Ram Air]

Dude....that's a restamp...period. Even if the pope says it isn't....it is!

[mmarx]

Does the EUN line up with build date? Block cast date is K219...

Mike

[bop-restoration]

Here is some good reading for those of you that share unfounded comments.

This car has not been forged in any way what so ever.

It is very interesting that those of you are posting very serious statements on here, which i have yet to see a someone from here step up to the plate and come and view this car's authenticity, and share with the community on here what they find. I will and i am happy to answer any and all questions about this car that i can.

The fact that the YZ stamp looks strange, does not prove that the car has been forged. There is plenty of fact to support mistakes at the factory when it comes to hand stampings. But there are statements on here that say that we and or previous owners have forged this car. That is not based on any fact. Who wants to come over and witness the timing cover being opened up for probably the first time and the measurements being made???? We will measure the front main cap face distance compared to the block front face?????? Who wants to come over and view the original gaskets on the motor???? There is nothing to hide on this car, but the last 4 numbers of the VIN to keep true criminals from duplicating a car like this.

The invitation stands.

The moderator has been notified to watch this post. Ignorance is bliss for some, but it doesn't have the same effect on everyone. So read and learn.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

Libel is a published or fixed form of defamation of character; a civil wrong that falsely impugns the reputation or character of a person or entity, opening the target up to public scorn or ridicule. Libel might appear in a magazine, book, newspaper, or in a radio or television broadcast. Signs, billboards or posters can also be mediums for libel. Online libel, or cyberlibel takes electronic forms such as email, mailing lists, newsgroups, chat rooms, podcasts, vodcasts and Web pages. A false charge that is uttered but not published is considered slander.

Libel involves false statements knowingly presented as fact. In the United States opinion is protected as a tenant of freedom of speech, falling outside the purview of libel. Citizens retain the right to comment on public figures and entities, including government and officials. Entertainment, parody, editorials and criticisms that may arguably misrepresent facts are not libelous so long as they are presented for amusement or stated as mere opinion.

Public figures must also meet a higher standard for proving libel than private citizens. Private citizens need only prove negligence, while public figures must show malice.

According to legal experts, one key reason for this seeming double standard is that unlike private citizens, public figures have access to the media. This assures celebrities, government officials and other high-profile figures a public forum for addressing publicized false statements. It is also understood that a public figure is a source for comment and criticisms. Those entering into public life must accept this as part and parcel of celebrity.

In recent years cyberlibel has become an issue. Although many citizens do not yet realize it, comments made to chat boards, newsgroups and even mailing lists are all forms of publication. Criticisms of companies or their goods can be a basis for libel charges if the poster misrepresents facts or fails to qualify his or her post as opinion. Businesses recognize the power of the Internet. Word-of-mouth becomes exponential when comments are posted to a worldwide medium.

To help protect yourself from libel charges, keep a log of all contact(s) you have with a company or person over any potential disagreement. Try to work things out amicably. If compelled to spread the word about a poor experience, avoid exaggeration. Stick to facts and if making a generalization based on your experience, be sure to state it is as your opinion.

[slowgto]

Jason,

I started this post, and I still believe that YZ stamp is not original. Since I can still see the factory machine lines on the block, I already know it wasn't ground down, so measuring the surface does not prove anything to me.

I have seen double stamps before, but in this case there are numerous marks in the block code area, like someone worked on it, to cover up the original stamp. In addition the font is not like the factory one on my car. Look at your YZ next to the one I added in the photo. If it was a factory double stamp, it would at least have the correct font.

I have not questioned the car being a Judge. I'm sure it would sell well with no motor. A buyer will look at it, make their own opinions, and decide what the car is worth on their own. Don't worry too much about the chit chat on the internet.

-Doug

[rustedgoat]

bop-restoration

I was just going to read but the whole "Libel attachment" changed that

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
People on this board are very serious and knowledgable about these issues.

From your photo the stamping is not consistent to what most people know as correct, it's that simple. If it is indeed the original motor thats great, but with that stamping there's going be comments about it.

The motor may be an original never opened virgin pontiac v8. All you can say is this is how you bought the car.

Maybe the factory line worker stamped the engine wrong and then decided to go find another dies set in a different font and then restamped it.

Maybe someone trashed the original engine found a date correct engine (EUN would then be correct) with no vin and then...well you figure out what could happen.

The history of the car is unknown 1st owner could have changed things, 2nd owner could have changed things, and you could have changed things. And the next owner just may magically find a way to cleanup that block stamping and make the rust disapear off the body. Taking someones word for it doen't cut it anymore. You can go on ebay and find nice dist and carbs that are number matching, NOS correct appearing or what ever these "restampers" are calling them today.
Falling back on well thats what I was told or that is how I bought it is not a defense or a guarantee on its authenticity, even if it is advertised or sold as such.

Knowledgable people are going to scrutanize things and there is nothing wrong with their opinions and statments when posted on websites. I am sure you will have no problem with the sale of this car unless the researve is way up there. Also if someone is local to you I am sure they will check it out. They might not tell everyone else on the board until after they win the auction.

This is a tough topic for someone just joining the site but welcome

[Judge273]

I would say if the vin matches block, that is a matching block. The date and cast code also jive, and the seller is willing to stand by it's originality. That also counts in my book.

Theory:The YZ could have been a factory error or a mechanic and or anyone with a wish to enhance or make the original YZ stand out. The face looks untouched to me too.