[pngoat]

Just received the PHS documents for my 65 goat. The zone is 10, and, the dealer is 185. I know that zone 10 is Illinois, however I don't know the name of dealer 185. I have checked the ultimate GTO site and it says dealer unknown. Does anyone know the name of dealer 185 in zone 10? any help appreciated. Thank You.

[jarhead]

At one point PHS was offering as an additional service, a window sticker with the options and prices and this had the Dealer information on it. Here's mine -

[John V.]

The Window Sticker reproductions are not real accurate, but apparently PHS does have a better list of Dealers than what has been compiled at the Ultimate site.

You might contact them to see if they will divulge the name without you having to buy the repro from them.

When the Dealer Nos. were 1st assigned, they were assigned in alphabetical order within each Zone. The order became corrupted in time as Dealerships changed hands and were renamed without changing the Dealer No. But in '64/'65, for the most part the Dealer Nos. remained in alphabetical sequence.

If the Dealership used the full name of the Owner, such as Ed Smith Pontiac, it would be alphabetized by last name.

Zone 10 is the Chicago, Ill. Zone

Example (first one isn't found at the Ultimate site)

10-208 Haggerty Pontiac in Villa Park, Ill falls alphabetically after
10-199 Grossinger Pontiac in Chicago, Ill

as it should.

Alphabetically, 10-185 would fall between

10-163 Peter Epsteen Pontiac in Skokie, Ill and Grossinger Pontiac.

Looking at the Ultimate site, ignore Wiele Motor Co. and Bert Adams Pontiac. Alphabetically these two are out of sequence, either the listings are wrong or these were not the Dealership names when the Dealer Nos. were originally assigned.

10-185 was assigned to a Dealership with a name alphabetically starting with an E, F, or G. FWIW, there was a Pontiac Dealership on Golf Rd. in Schaumburg that I think was named something like Franklin-Sullivan Pontiac (somebody remember it?). That would be one possibility! It changed hands in the '80s and was renamed. Unfortunately, that doesn't help you a lot.

Only other Zone 10 Dealer I can add is:

10-261 was Jones Buick-Pontiac in Pontiac, Ill.

If you are wondering where you can find this info, Dealer names are culled from various PHS records. In '64, the Fremont Plant docs show the Dealer name and no. (although Fremont cars won't likely have been shipped to a Chicago area Dealer) '65 Billing History Card records don't show the Dealer name, but Invoice records from '69 up show the Dealer name & no.

You might have some luck asking your question in the later model GTO & Firebird Forums, guys with '69 up cars and PHS records will be able to check for the Dealer name & no.

[pngoat]

jarhead and John V. Thank you for your responses. I will check the later model GTO and Firebird forums.

[Transamric]

I rarely ever have contradictory info to what John posts, but this time I do. At least in part. The Database of Dealer Codes I've assembled, consists primarily of dealers who were in business fron 1967 to '76. So perhaps that is the reason for my different observations. The "corruption" of the original plan may have been well advanced. But it appears we are making too much of the possibility that dealerships were numbered in any kind of logical order. Of the 339 dealers on my list, from all Zones around the country, there is no order to be seen, alphabetically or otherwise. As has been stated, dealerships came & went with sometimes surprising frequency, or again as has been mentioned, names were changed without the code neccessarily being changed. So to look specifically for an "F" or "G" dealer name may be limiting the scope of the search too much.
The closest to 310-185 in my list is 310-197, Greenway Pontiac-Olds. INC. in Morris IL. (12-71), so at least at that time, the possibility of an "F" or "G" still looks plausible. I record every date with the dealerships info to try & see if eventually I can build a rough aproximation of how long a particular dealer was in business. Wishful thinking I'm sure, since I primarily focus on '67-76 Firebird & '69-72 GTO.

[John V.]

Hi Ric, glad you've chimed in. No real contradiction.

I assume you've organized yours by Zone.

They are alphabetical WITHIN the Zone, so if you haven't sorted by Zone that would explain the discrepancy.

Since yours would be skewed to the later Models, you would certainly start to see some corruption as Dealerships changed hands and names. Also, brand new Dealerships that popped up after the original no. assignments would be out of sequence. But those are pretty easy to spot.

I don't know when these codes were established. I know they were in use as early as '62.

Another reason for some out of sequencing, according to the '64 Owners Guide, PMD had 27 Zone Offices at that time. Personally, I think that Zone 26 listed at the Ultimate Site is a myth, or misread, of what should be Zone 25 Dealers. All other Zones numbering Zones 1-29 but skipping Zones 26 & 28, match to the 27 Zone Office locations identified in the '64 Guide.

Conceivably, when the system was set-up, perhaps there was a Zone 26 and a Zone 28, with Dealers from those Zones redistributed to adjacent Zones when PMD shut those two down. That would have had to happen prior to 1964. However, I can't prove it to be so and I really see no evidence of such a thing. Just as likely that PMD expected to add two Zones, reserved the Zone Nos., but then never established them.

So as to help pngoat, Ric mentions 310. At some point, the leading digit appears in the coding. Zone 310 is the same as Zone 10, the leading 3 had some meaning to GM but not useful to what you would like to know.

Ric, I assume you are only considering Pontiac Dealer Nos., don't try to mix in Chevy Dealers, I don't think that works.

It would be interesting to overlay your record with the list at Ultimate GTO. Have you tried that?

I estimate that if every no. was assigned to a Sales Outlet, across the 27 Zones from '64, there would have been approx. 15,000 assigned Dealer Nos. and about 1000 Dealer Names are identified at least partially at the Ultimate Site.

The no. of Dealer Nos. assigned suggests to me that the Dealer Nos. were likely assigned years, perhaps decades, prior to even '64. The no. of Auto Dealership Outlets in the U.S. peaked in the '30s (about 50,000 at that time when every podunk store could sell a car I guess). Today, Pontiac has approximately 1000 Dealerships.

There is a good chance that 80% or more of the original alphabetically assigned PMD Dealership Nos. were out of business by 1964.

Those that still remained under the same Name would still be ordered alphabetically, and it appears to be a pretty high percentage to my eye. I just looked thru the St. Louis and the Jacksonville, Fla Zones at Ultimate. Of about 23 Dealer Names listed for St. Louis, only 1 (Cochrane Pontiac) sticks out as not in alpha order. I only found 2 in the Jax list.

Ric, be sure you are accounting for things like Claude Nolan Pontiac in Jax (misspelled as Nowlan at Ultimate). It is alphabetized under Nolan, since Nolan was the guy's last name, I mentioned that in my earlier post.

Check it out and see if you still disagree.

BTW, Greenway Pontiac-Olds is not listed at Ultimate, so that ever so slightly narrows down the window for pngoat.

I'm surprised nobody chimed in about that Dealer in Schaumburg. I think there is still a Pontiac Dealer there, wish I could remember the old name.

[ReelFun]

I checked my PHS and my dealer code is"16 575" I know the zone is for parts of NC and SC but I can't find the dealer name. Its not listed on the Ultimate GTO site. Anybody have a clue?

[Transamric]

Reelfun,...sorry, don't have that one either.

[Transamric]

I assume you've organized yours by Zone. CERTAINLY!

They are alphabetical WITHIN the Zone, so if you haven't sorted by Zone that would explain the discrepancy. DEFINITELY!

Since yours would be skewed to the later Models, you would certainly start to see some corruption as Dealerships changed hands and names. Also, brand new Dealerships that popped up after the original no. assignments would be out of sequence. But those are pretty easy to spot. I'M SURE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF MINE ARE '69 - '73.

I don't know when these codes were established. I know they were in use as early as '62.

Another reason for some out of sequencing, according to the '64 Owners Guide, PMD had 27 Zone Offices at that time. Personally, I think that Zone 26 listed at the Ultimate Site is a myth, or misread, of what should be Zone 25 Dealers. All other Zones numbering Zones 1-29 but skipping Zones 26 & 28, match to the 27 Zone Office locations identified in the '64 Guide. YEP AGAIN. I HAVE NO ZONE 26 LISTINGS.

Conceivably, when the system was set-up, perhaps there was a Zone 26 and a Zone 28, with Dealers from those Zones redistributed to adjacent Zones when PMD shut those two down. That would have had to happen prior to 1964. However, I can't prove it to be so and I really see no evidence of such a thing. Just as likely that PMD expected to add two Zones, reserved the Zone Nos., but then never established them.

So as to help pngoat, Ric mentions 310. At some point, the leading digit appears in the coding. Zone 310 is the same as Zone 10, the leading 3 had some meaning to GM but not useful to what you would like to know.

Ric, I assume you are only considering Pontiac Dealer Nos., don't try to mix in Chevy Dealers, I don't think that works. YES, PONTIAC ONLY.

It would be interesting to overlay your record with the list at Ultimate GTO. Have you tried that? SINCE I'M WAY UP HERE IN THE N.W., MOST OF MY DEALER LISTINGS ARE WEST OF THE MISSISSIPPI, SO WE DON'T HAVE TOO MANY IN COMMON.

I estimate that if every no. was assigned to a Sales Outlet, across the 27 Zones from '64, there would have been approx. 15,000 assigned Dealer Nos. and about 1000 Dealer Names are identified at least partially at the Ultimate Site. I'VE READ SOMEWHERE THAT IN THE MID-LATE '60's, THERE WERE ABOUT 5500 PONTIAC DEALERS. HAVE ANYTHING TO CONFIRM THAT?.

The no. of Dealer Nos. assigned suggests to me that the Dealer Nos. were likely assigned years, perhaps decades, prior to even '64. The no. of Auto Dealership Outlets in the U.S. peaked in the '30s (about 50,000 at that time when every podunk store could sell a car I guess). Today, Pontiac has approximately 1000 Dealerships.

There is a good chance that 80% or more of the original alphabetically assigned PMD Dealership Nos. were out of business by 1964. WOW! MORE THAN I WOULD HAVE GUESSED.

Those that still remained under the same Name would still be ordered alphabetically, and it appears to be a pretty high percentage to my eye. I just looked thru the St. Louis and the Jacksonville, Fla Zones at Ultimate. Of about 23 Dealer Names listed for St. Louis, only 1 (Cochrane Pontiac) sticks out as not in alpha order. I only found 2 in the Jax list.

Ric, be sure you are accounting for things like Claude Nolan Pontiac in Jax (misspelled as Nowlan at Ultimate). It is alphabetized under Nolan, since Nolan was the guy's last name, I mentioned that in my earlier post. I HAVE WONDERED IF GM ALPHABETIZED DEALER NAMES, WHEN IT WAS A PERSONS NAME, BY THE FIRST OR LAST NAME.

[Transamric]

Rats! My last sentence should have read "I have wondered WHEN GM alphabetized.....etc". I know they did, it's the HOW that I haven't been sure of.

[John V.]

Ric, I have a copy of a Build Sheet record (not PHS Billing History Card) out of a '65 Catalina, shows:

25-269 BUD MEADOWS PONT INC
4724 ROOSEVELT WAY
SEATTLE WASH

This is one that is recorded at Ultimate in the non-existing Zone 26.

The Dealer No. is recorded as 289. And it showed a different Seattle address from a '69 Judge. My guess, the Zone & Dealer no. were misread. And the dealership may have had a physical move to 2300 Aurora Ave., N. in Seattle or had multiple locations?

This one was reported by Eric White, Eric are you following this thread?

It shows as 269 in 3 places on the Build Sheet, at least by my eyes.

However, at Ultimate, there is no 25-269 listed.

But there is a 25-287 for a "B MEADOWS PONTIAC in PORTLAND and a 25-289 that was reported as possibly near Seattle but Dealer Name not known.

One thing I didn't account for in totalling the no. of outlets is multiple dealer nos. assigned to one Corp. entity. Or perhaps multiple nos. assigned to one outlet with multiple delivery addresses perhaps.

Do you have any Bud Meadows Pontiac dealer nos. recorded in your records?

25-269 would seem out of alphabetical sequence to a few others listed at Ultimate in Zone 25. Wonder what the story on that might be? Unless I've misread it.

ReelFun, sorry, I also can't come up with yours.

[Tom Vaught]

Dealer might have multiple Numbers under the same name if the dealer owned/ran multiple stores at different locations. My Uncle had several stores.

Tom Vaught

[Region Warrior]

This may be of interest.

The Pontiac dealer that used to be in Merrillville, In.(chicago zone) was 10024.
Same owner moved from down town Gary, In. sometime between 60 and 65.
Dont know if the code was changed.
The service manager who worked at both locations comes in every so often to bs, so i'll ask.

Around 85, the original owner passed away.
He had already made a deal approved by GM for his G.M./accountant to take over(willed) the franchise.
The G.M. had to buy the building and property from the serviving family.
His son lived out west, forget where.
His daughter lived in Canada(where the original family's from bty).
Niether was interested in the business.
The dealer code wasnt changed, which i've never seen before.

[johnta1]

I have another dealer for zone 26.

It is also in zone 25 with a different dealer number than the zone 26 dealer number.

Zone - 25
Dealer Number - 457
Dealer - Valley Pontiac-GMC

Zone - 26
Dealer Number - 468
Dealer - Valley Pontiac-Buick-GMC

The Zone 26 came from a newer PHS though, 77 TA
The Zone 25 came from a 70 TA PHS

I would think transamric would have a lot more zone 26 numbers since they were from his area it appears.

[Transamric]

Rats!! Lost track of this thread, meant to be back sooner.

JohnV, interestingly, I have full paperwork (including window sticker) of a '65 Catalina also, that my Dad bought new at Bud Meadows in Seattle. Meadows was huge back then, & had 3 dealerships I know of. My info on the Seattle store (invoices from 7/65 - 6/69) is;
Bud Meadows Pontiac INC.
4724 Roosevelt Way
Seattle Wash. 325-289. (7/65)
Then there is;
Bud Meadows Pontiac, INC.
12800 Aurora Ave. North
Seattle Wash. 325-289. (10/68 & 6/69)
No doubt on the info, clear as can be to read. Another one of their dealerships was;
Meadows Pontiac Co.
3085 N.E. Sandy Blvd.
Portland ORE. 325-287 (2 invoices dated 1/69, 6/69 & 8/69).
I have no 326-xxx Zone codes at all out of about 340 total.
JohnTA1 has one for Valley Pontiac as a 326-468 in '77. Doesn't fit well with my data since I have the following;
Valley Pontiac-GMC INC. in Auburn as 325-457, 7/70, and then;
Valley Pontiac-Buick-GMC INC., still in Auburn, 325-458, 4/78. Can't explain this, but clearly no 326 code for Valley Pontiac between these two dates.
The larger dealers must have had more than one Zone code assigned, even for one address, although I don't know why this would have been done. And perhaps it was GM's intension to use the 326 prefix earlier on, but it was not used until a later time. Sorry, not a lot of "hard & fast" answers here to what we're seeing.
What do you see here?

[Prairierust]

I agree that something must alter the sequence in the assignment of dealer numbers. I was curious why most of my documents for 3 GTO`s never match. i.e. Dealer in zone 20 #153 is listed Dockum Pontiac by the Ultimate list, however my build sheet shows 199, and matches the original Idento Plate. (1964)

[johnta1]

Does the Idento plate have the address of Dockum on it?

If so does it match the address of Ultimate's?

[Prairierust]

The address from Ultimate is not the same as my address as listed from the Idento plate. Ultimate has the Dockum Pontiac at 2365 S Robinson Ok City Zip 73109 and my idento plate is listing Dockum Pontiac, Inc. at 2205 S Robinson Oklahoma City, Ok., but with no Zip code either on the Idento plate info or the original Windo sticker. Soooooo, I am assumning that in 64 there may have been no zip code, making this the earlier location? This is meaningless as I have tryed to no avail, to obtain info on this dealer. Only one item comes up from a search, telling us that a law suit involving Dockum had taken place. I can`t hardly believe that someone wouldn`t recall a dealer of the 60`s. I worked at a dealer in the 60`s and remember it! I did follow up on a Dockum selling Toyota in Oklahoma, which offered up 0.

[Prairierust]

I forgot to mention that if my car was therefore sold at the earlier 1964 location, Dealer 199. Then how cum Dockum later was Ultimate`s dealer 153. More mystery!!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Prairierust

Soooooo, I am assumning that in 64 there may have been no zip code, making this the earlier location?

It's possible. John V has reminded us that "zip codes" were not introduced until 1963 and did not gain widespread use until several years after that. I have a document in my collection that was mailed in March 1965 with no zip code on it.

Originally Posted by Prairierust

This is meaningless as I have tryed to no avail, to obtain info on this dealer. Only one item comes up from a search, telling us that a law suit involving Dockum had taken place. I can`t hardly believe that someone wouldn`t recall a dealer of the 60`s.

This doesn't surprise me...the selling agency of my '63 Grand Prix was Stevenson Pontiac in Ludington Michigan. An internet search of Stevenson yielded nothing.

However, since I had the mailing address (from some of the original literature that came with the car) I googled the address and found that the building is still there, in use as an antique store. I figured that anybody that runs an antique store would be interested in old car memorabilia (or at least would understand a person like that) so I have exchanged emails with the owners and they are looking for whatever they can find.

K