[65Mark]

A curiosity question here. 1965 real GTO needs floor, trunk floor, quarter panels, and upper windshield metal, the easiest way to fix this without buying a lot of repop parts and piecing it together, is to do a complete rear clip with top off a Lemans. The only main body part left of the GTO is the cowl/dash and A pillars. The frame from the GTO may or may not be savable. Would you call this a Lemans cloned into a GTO with GTO VIN tag or a GTO with a replacement rear clip as was common to do in a rear end collision back in the day? The nose and doors would be from the GTO.

Thoughts?

[b-man]

It's a restored GTO.

Still has a GTO VIN #, no big deal that a Lemans was the donor for the rusted-out sheet metal.

The GTO package was an option on the Lemans line for '64 & '65 anyway.

On the other hand, my '64 GTO is a clone.

It's a Lemans with a GTO hood and emblems, added many years ago by a previous owner.

[65Mark]

That was my thinking too. Now lets examine it one step further, lets add in that the cowl is rusted too and you want to use most or at least part of the Lemans cowl. That would involve cutting apart the GTO cowl and replacing it with parts from the donor Lemans. Still a restored GTO? What if the only GTO original part of the cowl/dash worth saving was the left side panel where the VIN tag was mounted? You see where I'm going with this? Wouldn't this then be the same as just swapping the VIN tag area sheet metal with tag attached from a GTO to a Lemans?

I guess I have too much time on my hands tonight...

[bdk1976]

Actually, that's technically not the 'easiest' way, but that discussion would open an even bigger can of worms!

Anyway, I have a decent 65 parts car that I will be parting/chopping up this spring - will have a frame and possibly some of the sheetmetal available....not looking to get rich off of it either, just need some room! PM me if interested.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 65Mark

That was my thinking too. Now lets examine it one step further, lets add in that the cowl is rusted too and you want to use most or at least part of the Lemans cowl. That would involve cutting apart the GTO cowl and replacing it with parts from the donor Lemans. Still a restored GTO? What if the only GTO original part of the cowl/dash worth saving was the left side panel where the VIN tag was mounted? You see where I'm going with this? Wouldn't this then be the same as just swapping the VIN tag area sheet metal with tag attached from a GTO to a Lemans?

I guess I have too much time on my hands tonight...

This will be a very long thread.

[65Mark]

Originally Posted by b-man

This will be a very long thread.

That's a good thing....... isn't it?

[Pecosbill]

I'm currently "adding the GTO option" to my 64 Lemans convertible. Many years ago I took the 389 out of a wrecked 64 GTO in a boneyard Then I picked up a 4 speed Muncie and shifter, bellhousing and clutch and the limited slip rear end from another 64 GTO. At one point prior to my buying it in 1975 my Lemans had been in a minor accident and was repaired with the right front fender and core support from a GTO in another junk yard (it was a small town and easy to trace). So my drivetrain is pure 64 GTO, the hood, which I am adding and the aforementioned sheet metal are from a 64 GTO. It will be indistinguishable from a "true" GTO when I'm done with it. But it's not a GTO. And yet it's not totally a Lemans either. And PHS says it's a Lemans. Since the car has a body in really great condition and a total 64 GTO drivetrain, it's all the GTO I need. In reality, I don't really care, since I'm not planning on ever getting rid of it, and am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes to fraudulently make a buck. It's just my car, plain and simple, and I'm just fixing it the way I want it. That's all.

[68gtoMN]

This is a "principle" versus common sense issue. Technically, you can't perform the VIN swap and have it be considered the same car. On the other hand, technically you can replace the ENTIRE remainder of the car EXCEPT the vin/data plate area of the cowl and it WILL be considered the original car that was restored.

I'll save all of the legal mumbo jumbo here, but you can not set the precedent for allowing this swap in one situation and not then allow it in all situations. If you allow the restorer to perform the VIN swap, then what prevents someone else from trying to create a GTO with borrowed / or discovered VIN?

IF you need to remove the VIN/DATA PLATE, you are supposed to contact GM. They will send an authorized representative to perform the VIN removal. There are penalties, under law, for performing this yourself.

I know...this seems ridiculous, but it is the slippery slope argument. If you were to have a GTO that was a lost cause and then also come upon a candidate for a swap and then you performed said swap without saying anything...who would know? As long as you disposed of the carcass of the original GTO as that of the donor car (LeMans/Tempest), the world would retain a GTO and lose a donor LeMans/Tempest.

It certainly makes financial sense, to most, to perform the swap to a decent donor. But it is not allowed by law. Make your own decisions...at least you know the rules.

[65Mark]

I'm not doing a VIN tag swap. I just wondered where the line was. I don't see much difference between replacing everything but the cowl and doing a VIN swap, except one is legal and accepted and one is not.

[Jerry H.]

IF you need to remove the VIN/DATA PLATE, you are supposed to contact GM. They will send an authorized representative to perform the VIN removal. There are penalties, under law, for performing this yourself.

Contact GM??? Didn't you mean to say the Department of Motor Vechicles?

Other than that statement, that was a very good analogy, 68gtoMN.

[kookykrispy]

if the cowl from the gto remains, and has the original vin tag on it, then it is still the GTO, even if all other parts on it are from a lemans or from aftermarket sources.

Once you start cutting up the sheet metal near and around the vin tag, then it becomes an issue of VIN swapping... since the VIN tag is attached to the cowl/dash.

I agree that there should be a legal and correct way to do this involving the DMV and possibly the state patrol to certify its legality... basically they want to make sure no stolen parts are being used.

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by 65Mark

A curiosity question here. 1965 real GTO needs floor, trunk floor, quarter panels, and upper windshield metal, the easiest way to fix this without buying a lot of repop parts and piecing it together, is to do a complete rear clip with top off a Lemans. The only main body part left of the GTO is the cowl/dash and A pillars. The frame from the GTO may or may not be savable. Would you call this a Lemans cloned into a GTO with GTO VIN tag or a GTO with a replacement rear clip as was common to do in a rear end collision back in the day? The nose and doors would be from the GTO.

Thoughts?

In my opinion, that is still a legitimate LeMans GTO, not a clone.

A LeMans/Tempest/Ventura becomes a GTO clone when all of the items that make up the GTO option are added to a car that is identified by a V.I.N. plate and PHS documentation (or an original build manifest sheet) that establishes that that car was not originally assembled with the GTO option.

Don't all legalities hinge around the disposition of the V.I.N. tag? In every state of the union, the tag is the legal identifier of the vehicle, and the title identifies the legal owner of the vehicle. If a person legally owns a LeMans GTO or Ventura GTO that is rust, collision or fire-damaged beyond a reasonable, economical means of repair, is there any law that disallows the unreasonalble or uneconomical replacement of any body part that would facilitate the restoration of that vehicle to driveable condition? As long as the rivets/welds that hold the V.I.N. tag to the door hinge pillar or upper dash panel are not tampered with, I don't know if the law makes any specifications as to the size of the panel that can be repaired.

Is there any state law that makes allowances or establishes guidelines for a level of damage that forces the "retirement" of any vehicle? Replace a quarter panel, entire rear clip, or attach an entire body shell to a one-foot section of door hinge pillar that hosts the V.I.N. tag; where is the legal limit to how large the original body panel has to be to retain the identity of the V.I.N. tag to which it is attached? 50% or more? Are you attaching the tag panel to a different body, or are you attaching a replacement body to the V.I.N. tag's panel? Does it depend on whether or not the tag panel is still attached to the frame? Each state may have "chop shop" laws that deal with these questions. I don't know. What is legal or illegal? What is ethical or unethical?

If it is not against the law, could the intent to produce an undetectible repair to a panel hosting a V.I.N. tag still be considered and unethical act?

Is it legal to cut the cowl (retaining the unmolested V.I.N. tag) from a damaged body, leave the cowl section attached to the original frame, and sell it as a legal vehicle?

[65Mark]

VIN tag swapping is illegal period. But wouldn't replacing everything but the VIN tag and cowl, or to look at the reverse angle, using just the cowl with VIN tag attached on a Lemans body be the same thing? The cowl is identical on both cars, the only difference is the tag, the part you can't swap. At what point is there no longer a car, when only the VIN tag is left? Could you sell a cowl with VIN tag as a car, no frame or any other part? If so then you would be "repairing/restoring" a GTO, if not you would be just changing the cowl on a lemans and would have to legally retitle it and get a state VIN tag.

[zbuickman]

This has been discussed many times on here I think it came down to not removing the vin and data plate (how ever it is not ileagal in any way to remove the data plate)...... but cutting out the door jam with the vin intact and the vin on the frame and replacing to anoter vehicle is the loophole in the law(some state(Ive never seen any written law(just heresay))) again no matter what it is a restored GTO if the VIN says... That is the sad fact. no matter how bad the investors want one less GTO to make theres more valuable.

[6d7gto]

I've posted this several times in the past but because most people don't realize it, I'll post again. Virtually every part (including sheet metal) have date codes stamped right into them making a swap easily detectable. I'm not siding one way or the other, just want everyone to realize that any sheet metal panel that's been replaced will stand out as non original to the car no matter what the VIN and data plates say. The only true 'all original' cars are those that retain every part they were born with (including oil and other fluids)!!! Not being smart mouthed (for a change), just stating a fact.

[GT182]

Here are some questions.... stupid, dumb, or whatever but it fits in with the "clone" questions. What about Dynacorn bodies? None for the Pontiac A-bodies I know. BUT.... how do these get VIN #s. Are the VINs allowed to be taken from a complete rust bucket and switched over to the Dynacorn body, and you use all the parts you can from the donor? Would you go thru your state's DMV to keep it all legal for the switch or need to get a completely new VIN # as the streetrod kits do?

A can of worms I know but still ligament questions. If I had one of these repo bodies available and had a GTO so rusted out but everything else still useable, I'd really consider going this route. And I've been wondering about this since they started making these repo bodies for the Mustangs and Camaros. Someday they could possibly do the the Pontiac A-bodies. Not likely, but still a possibility.

[johnta1]

GT182, in Illinois, you would have to apply for a VIN, same as a 'kit car'.

Also, in Illinois, if a car is substantially repaired, I.E. cowl, major body parts repaired, the DOT needs to be notified and a 'salvage title' or 'Rebuilder' title is issued.
The original VIN is not used and probably destroyed.

Technically, you can't remove the VIN from a vehicle without notifying the DOT.

[mike nixon]

This subject is a never ending battle.

TO the owners fo low mile documented original cars a clone is a repaint and interior kit.

TO a builder who repairs rust / collision damage if the title says GTO [PHS] It's a GTO no matter what's been replaced.

TO me, If it's done right and not just a couple emblems and a hood it doesn't matter. I build them to drive, not to resell.If it keeps another one on the road where they belong and is disclosed for what it is I have no probelm with it.When someone lies about what's been done to the car that the probelms start.

Mike

TO everyone else, it's somewhere in between the first two.

In Indiana, per the trooper that does title inspections, the chassis is what's titled. The VIN plate is just a convienent way to avoid crawling under the car. A good inspector will check both.Frame swaps are just as illegal as IN tag tampering if the correct number's not on it.

[GT182]

Thanks for that info John and Mike.

I don't think frame changes are a problem here in Delaware. When you go thru inspection all they look at is the VIN on the dash for the newer vehicles, and the door tag on the ones from our era. And changing a frame wasn't in NY where I was from, but that could have changed.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"In Indiana, per the trooper that does title inspections, the chassis is what's titled. The VIN plate is just a convienent way to avoid crawling under the car. A good inspector will check both.Frame swaps are just as illegal as IN tag tampering if the correct number's not on it."

Quote:

"1965 real GTO needs floor, trunk floor, quarter panels, and upper windshield metal, the easiest way to fix this without buying a lot of repop parts and piecing it together, is to do a complete rear clip with top off a Lemans. The only main body part left of the GTO is the cowl/dash and A pillars. The frame from the GTO may or may not be savable."

In Michigan, the car's GTO VIN would be destroyed and a "Salvage Title" or an "Assembled Vehicle Title" would be issued, thereby destroying any connection with the original "GTO" as manufacturered by General Motors.

Obviously the more GTO parts that you can retain on the car to support the "GTO" history the better off you are.

Moving a VIN tag is basically the same deal as a "Chop Shop" building a stolen vehicle.

That being said, it you have a "Professional Restorer" like Scott Tiemann restore your vehicle using parts from several vehicles, the Law Enforcement people tend to look at that deal a lot differently as long as the VIN does not get moved and you have the documentation
from Scott Tiemann showing the restored items on the billing invoices.

JMO

Tom Vaught