[Tom Vaught]

Time for a Trivia Contest: "Red Car" vs "Blue Car" and other trivia:

1) What Date was the 1964 Pontiac GTO Option occifially released?
(Day, Month, and Year must all be correct)

2) What Pontiac Executive announced the new option and what were his official titles? (he had two).

3) When did the "GTO" discussions start and who were the two key players in the discussions.

4) In order for the 1964 GTO to come about, Pontiac had to get out of racing. Who was ordered to "get Pontiac out of racing"? What was his title? and Where did he come from?

5) Who was tasked to save Pontiac when it was in trouble and what engine option did he use to save Pontiac.

6) Was a 4 cylinder ever offered in a Grand Prix?

7) Was the 421 SD engine ever a Regular Production Option?

8) What "Group" in GM and what people actually put the first 389 engine in a LeMans. Who was the boss and what was the "Group's" responsibility?

9) Who was the Sales Manager for Pontiac Motor Division?

10) What committee was responsible for reviewing all new car models prior to release to the public? What was their official name?

11) How was the GTO Option able to be slipped by the Committee and what method did they use to do it?

12) How many dealers did Pontiac have during the introduction of the 1964 GTO? How many GTOs did each dealer originally order?

13) How many GTOs were projected to be sold the first year?

14) How many GTOs did the Sales Manager for Pontiac Motor Division think would be sold?

15) How many GTOs did John DeLorean want to sell the first year?

16) Why was there virtually no initial advertising on the 1964 GTO and how were the cars originally marketed?

17) Who first complained about the Pontiac Division having the GTO?

18) What simple engineering design allowed the GTO to happen for Pontiac and why?

19) What magazine offered the first successful magazine exposure for the 1964 GTO? How did it happen? Who wrote the article?

20) There were two cars in the test. What did the cars look like?

21) What happened to one of the cars and why was it not run for the test? What car was substituted? Some say the article was bogus, why?

22) What were the configurations for the two cars actually tested?
One car blew up, which one? What happened after it blew up? Why did it blow up?

23) According to reports some say that one or both cars had a 421 engine, is this true? How were the cars prepped according to a Pontiac expert?

24) Answers to these questions will be answered by what magazine and what issue?

Good luck, a lot of tough questions here and some surprises?

Tom Vaught

[Keith Seymore]

Is John V allowed to play?

[Juliano]

I would like to know the answer to question #24 , so that I can buy that magazine when its available. Thanks

[fdowdy]

Yeah. What he said.

[65Mark]

17) Who first complained about the Pontiac Division having the GTO?

Ferrari

[Juliano]

13) How many GTOs were projected to be sold the first year?

5000 ............

[65Mark]

15) How many GTOs did John DeLorean want to sell the first year?

10,000

[Tom Vaught]

John V can play.

13) 5000 is the correct number projected, according to Wangers. John Z did not project a number but thought he could sell at least 5000 units.

15) Wangers may have written in his book that John Z. wanted 10,000 GTOs but I do not have that info personally. We will assume 10K is correct unless someone came prove otherwise.

17) Actually not the answer I was looking for. Hint, It was inside GM.

24) The Information was published in a "GTO" type magazine 17 years ago. Name the magazine!

Keep going!

Tom Vaught

[John V.]

Keith, I wouldn't stand a chance. I'd just be guessing for most of them. Here's what I think for no. 1 & 2.

1. I do not know when the option was made "official" as in "approved for production". I'm not even sure I understand the question. The first public announcement that I'm familiar with came from PMD's PR Dept. in a Press Release dated Oct. 1, 1963 (Tuesday), effectively to coincide with the Oct. 3, 1963 release date when the Dealers were first able to offer the '64 models for sale. The '64s (including GTOs) had begun regular production on Sept. 3, 1963 and had been in the pipeline and hitting Dealer lots ever since that date. The Press Release was specifically intended to generate publicity, the option had been approved and actual builds produced long before the Press Release was distributed. Planning for the GTO option was well in advance of the Press Release of course, so the option was green lighted even earlier. I believe some PMD documents have been published in the past that shed some light on the development of the GTO option and its progress thru the summer of '63 but I'd have to dig deep to find that stuff.

2. I assume the answer to this question would be E.M. "Pete" Estes. Quotes attributed to Estes were included in the aforementioned Press Release. Estes held the Title of PMD General Manager, and as such, was also a Vice President of General Motors Corp. I do not know if previous memos were sent to Dealers about the GTO and if so, whose signature they went out under. It has always been my opinion that GTOs were on Dealer lots in time for the Oct 3rd "opening day". It is hard for me to imagine that a Press Release would have been made about the car without having actual GTOs on the lots ready for purchase.

[mike nixon]

#6 is unfortunately yes.

[65Mark]

7) Was the 421 SD engine ever a Regular Production Option?

No, because of the solid lifter cam. The H-O was the best option you could order from the factory. You could however get that solid roller as a dealer installed option. Along with that you got a disclaimer that stated "for racing purposes only".

[65Mark]

17) Who first complained about the Pontiac Division having the GTO?

ok, if not Ferrari, it had to be the corvette group.... maybe?

[performerrpm]

i agree with 65mark.....corvettte aks chebby.....ferrari right in with em

[Tom Vaught]

John V is correct for #1 and #2

Mike Nixon is correct on #6

#7, According to Jim Wangers, The 1962 SD Engine was a DIRO "Dealer Installed Replacement Option". He states that in 1963 the 63 421 SD engine was a Regular Production Option. (In my mind, a very limited. (to a select few RPO).

#17, No it was not the Corvette Boys. Try Again.

Man, we have some pretty good history guys. Never said the deal was going to be easy.

Tom Vaught

[400 4spd.]

19. Road and Track(?)

39. Frank Bridge

Does #17 refer to a division of GM or an individual at GM?

[fyrffytr1]

#2. Eliot M. "Pete" Estes, Pontiac General Manager and GM vice president.
#3. Not sure exactly when but it was Jim Wangers and Simon "Bunkie" Knudsen.

[Old Man Taylor]

It took me so long to type this that many of the items may have been covered already. I gave these my best "quick" shot.

3. John DeLorean and Jim Wangers
8. John had a "brainstorming" session with some of his engineers. The group was Engineering, the boss was John DeLorean and the two engineers were Russ Gee and Bill Collins.
9, Frank Bridge
10. The Engineering Policy Committee.
11. The Policy Committee reviewed models, not options on models. Hence the GTO was made an option to the LeMans.
14. Less than 500.
15. DeLorean wanted a commitment for 5000, but I don't know how many he expected.
16. The late and questionable approval of the GTO required that it be left out of the mainstream marketing material. They later released a GTO specific pamphlet (GTO: A Device For Shrinking Time and Distance").
18. Compatible motor mounts and physical dimensions being the same as a 326.
19. Car and Driver, Dave Davis. C & D was a new magazine looking for a splash in the American Performance category.
20. A blue Sports Coupe (Nocturne Blue) and a red Sports Coupe.
22. Blue - 389 tri-power, 3.55 gear, M-20
Red car - 421 with Bobcat treatment, tri-power, 3.90 gear, M-21
The red car spun a bearing when running on a road course. It was not set up to assure adequate oiling on a road course.
23. No, I believe that only the red car had a 421. I still contend that it also had SD heads, but not many people agree with that - including Jim Wangers.

[Keith Seymore]

Well done, OMT.

John V - c'mon! You can do these in your sleep! (lol). I knew my answers would be cryptic and brief compared to yours...

Mike Nixon - a 4 cylinder in a "vintage" Grand Prix? What's the story there?

For a quick story about the GTO name, see this thread: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=549318

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

8. John had a "brainstorming" session with some of his engineers. The group was Engineering, the boss was John DeLorean and the two engineers were Russ Gee and Bill Collins.

Also - not to digress too much - but it occured to me that if I had my "current" job back then:

a) I would have reported to either Russ Gee or Bill Collins
b) One of my responsibilities would have been to review Wangers' work and make sure that it was accurate and could be substantiated.

[Keith Seymore]

Tom - can we get an "official" summary of where we are at here?

According to my notes, I'd say that questions 4, 5, 12 and 14 still require answers.

#17 has had much debate.

I'd like to propose OMT answered #21, even though he did not call it out specifically.

#24 - the magazine was from 1992?

K