[70FormulaRAIII]

I purchased a 1970 Formula Ram Air III off ebay that was advertised as having the "numbers matching engine and transmission". Is this a restamped block? Build date of the car is 04B

[70FormulaRAIII]

A couple more pics of the possible restamped VIN and one of the ID tag on my not so #'s matching PQ trans

[WDCreech]

Since a YY code was not used in 1970, I would say that it has not been restamped. If the partial vin# near the side of the timing cover matches the vin on your title, it is numbers matching. Everything else seems right. The casting date of July 01, 69 could be correct, especially since it has the 70 cast above it.

[The Boss]

No Engine Unit Number?

What was the auction number?

[70FormulaRAIII]

No EUN or 20 preceding the NXXXXXX. The N is not lined up with the rest of the VIN. The VIN font doesn't look the same as others I have seen. I'm no expert, but the block has grooves in it where the VIN is stamped. I have seen this on another original VIN stampings. Seems that would be gone and the metal smooth if it's restamped. That would indicate that maybe it isn't a restamp but maybe a fresh stamp on a bare block aquired from a dealer as a SR block. Just guessing. But it is a pretty early date code for a SR block isn't it? And that would still mean it was misrepresented in the sale. If the factory didn't stamp it then it isn't #'s matching, period.

[70FormulaRAIII]

http://www.collectorcarpricetracker....0373566237.pdf

[johnta1]

PW tranny is for a GP.

The block looks like it might have been ground on by the partial VIN.
It also looks like the stampings are too big for what they normally are.

[70FormulaRAIII]

Originally Posted by johnta1

PW tranny is for a GP.

Yep, here is the link to the ebay listing. Very stock, very original, numbers matching engine and trans...shoot me!

I'm looking for something definitive to rule this block in or out. I speak with an attorney on Monday

http://www.collectorcarpricetracker....0373566237.pdf

[johnta1]

Posted in your other thread.

For being such a trophy winner, seems like it has a lot wrong.

[goathead455]

Is the VIN normally closer to the timing cover?

[68gtoMN]

As much as I dislike being the bearer of bad news, here is my take on your VIN stamp: FAKE.

IN the picture below, I did analysis of the entire stamp and then of each individual number in relation to the others. Factors "measured" by colored lines include:

1. Relative alignment to an imaginary line (these VINs were line stamped - all numbers registered to the same axis (represented by YELLOW line - drawn between bottom of N and bottom of 7. Parallel lines drawn at top of both)
2. Relative alignment of each individual number/letter to the north/south axis of the number 7 (represented by GREEN lines - each GREEN line is exactly parallel and consistent with the number 7)
3. Absolute north/south alignment of each number/letter by drawing a line from the center of the lower portion of the number through the center of the upper portion of the number (represented by BLUE line)
4. Relative alignment of each number to the number directly next to it by drawing parallel lines on pairs of numbers/letters that had sections with absolute east/west portions (represented by PINK) lines

In point 1, you can see that several of the numbers between N & 7 drop below the lower parallel line. Were these to have been stamped as one, they would all line up. They do not. These were stamped individually.

In points 2 & 3, you can see that the numbers vary in north/south alignment to one another. The green line represents the absolute north/south alignment of 7 and relative alignment of the other numbers to that reference point (all green lines are exactly parallel). The BLUE line represents the absolute north/south alignment of each individual number. Comparing GREEN TO BLUE on each shows how each number is tilted on a different axis

In point 4, the letter N showed clear tops/bottoms to each point and parallel lines were drawn at top/bottom of letter. To the right of N is 1, which has an absolute east/west reference point along the bottom (or serif) of the number. That line was duplicated and moved to the top of the 1 - exactly parallel to the bottom PINK line. Comparing how the lines between N & 1 intersect, it is clear to see that these were individually stamped.

In addition, looking at the Block Code stamp, I can make out a very faint set of EUN stamps that appear almost invisible as if milled off. The YY Z stamps are also off line meaning that they were individually stamped, not as a pair.

[65WJ]

Could it have been an SR block the dealer stamped? (poorly)

patrick

[mmarx]

I looked at this car a few years ago and passed on it due to this reason...

Read about here: http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=457683

Mike

[Zirconia]

Note that the Z stamp is clean and shiny, no paint, unlike the YY stamp. This is consistent with the Z stamp done relatively recently, after the YY stamps, sometime after the paint was scraped off the block. To me, without going into such details, a two second glance is all it takes to realize this block was restamped.

[x-bird2]

I'd pull the water pump housing and clean the face of the block chemically--no sanding, wire brushing or grinding. The vin numbers are larger and out of position, but the block face milling (grooves) appears original. I'd check for any evidence of grinding/smoothing of those grooves closer to the cover where the vin normally would be. The "Z" in the code does appear to have the paint in its center portion. Again, i'd clean that up and inspect around it carefully, particularly to see if there's anything showing under the second "Y". Again, look for the grooves in that area as well as any change in the surface level of the face of the block. It does look "shallow" where it meets the cast surface of the block on the right. compare the height of the milled surface side to side. As to the trans, it may have been the victim of a transmission shop core-swap repair. If the vin on the pad on the trans has been stamped to match the car's vin, then someone did it clearly with the intent to pass it off as original. if it has another car's vin, then it may be that you're looking at an SR engine and a trans that got swapped out and the seller just made an assumption as to originality on the trans and never checked it. When it comes to SR blocks, I've seen some very sloppy stampings on definite SR originals. To add, with SR VIN stamps, most of the dozen + I've seen have been out by the edge. The one telling thing that is missing is "SR" preceding the partial vin. I've always been of the belief that they came from Pontiac to the dealer with that stamped at the plant to identify their usage.

[goathead455]

I also wonder if it is actually has 4 bolt main caps,if it is a restamp

[x-bird2]

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

Here's the post I made last night in the other YZ restamp thread. If you'd like to see proof that the block code / VIN was re-stamped, view this.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...39&postcount=8

Don't disagree with you one bit that this was obviously not done at the factory. However, dealerships did do SR vin stamps, and they often looked like this one. Banged in individually with whatever they had for a stamp set. The SR stamp can also be "away" from the partial vin. I'd also look around further on the face for it, which is why i suggest pulling the cover and cleaning the face off completely. I can't see the partial MUN you reference, that image is a bit out of focus. I think he's either got a legit SR block or a fraudulent restamp. Finding either an old MUN remnent, another letter under that "Y" or evidence of machining down of the original block face will provide a clearer answer to which of the two it is.

[goathead455]

How common is it to actually have the VIN stamped on an SR block?

[x-bird2]

It "should" be 100% if it was an installed SR block. There are "blank" SR blocks still floating around. Those have been and still are being vin stamped and used to restore cars to "numbers matching" status. They are considered "Correct" replacement blocks and the general consensus has been that they are one step ahead of a used replacement block with a different vin as far as valuation is concerned.

[70FormulaRAIII]

Any ideas as to legal recourse, or is this another case where the system is designed to protect the criminal?

I bought this car from Jack Nichols, who has been in this hobby a lot longer than me and he is way more familiar with this car since he restored it. When an honest person sells a car they show a pic of every scratch, dent , bump etc. so that after the sale thay can wash their hands of it and not have to worry about a bunch of drama. None of these issues with the engine and trans were disclosed to me, and believe me, I asked. I think people like to play word games. When they list it, original is synonymous with #'s matching but when you ask a question as to something being original, I guess that can mean a lot of different things!