[blown 68]

so, i am running a built turbo 400, and it has served me well. but, second gear is fading away, and before i rebuild it, the thought of other options crossed my mind, like something with an overdrive......

my setup: blown 474ci poncho, 650hp and 650 lbs. ft. of torque in the current tune, continental converter with a tight 2000rpm stall, and 3.42's in a 12 bolt rear........

i know nothing in the tranny department, so i am starting here with fellow pontiac brethren. what are my possible choices for an overdrive tranny that will survive that horsepower on the street and track?

thank you all!


davey

[Schoust]

I am thinking about the very same thing only I will be dumping my Muncie 4 spd in favor of a 2004r.I believe that is the trans that all of the big power guy's are running for Id. If you have even deeper pockets then that you can go for the 4l80e I would love to have one of these trans. but the controls alone to run them are pretty steep! If you sneak out member Jakeshoe he will tell you all you need to know about these two choices of Od transmissions. and also give you a great deal on one too. As for myself I am going with the 2004r when I can recover from the paint job I'm finally getting done....

[andrewT]

The 4l80 is much stronger then the 200 and always will be by nature of design if I am correct.

the only upside I can think of about a 200 is that you won't have to run a BOP adapter plate if it was out of a BOP car? I could be wrong about that though!

[jrh3405]

I'm also in the same dilema, I just seen an ad for the 6X SIX-SPEED automatic by TCI,there talking up to 850 horsepower. But i dont see a price tag or BOP bellhousing. Have any of you looked at this OD? What about a gear venders OD? How long is a 200r4 going to hold up to say 500-600 HP?

[goatwgn]

Put a California Performance Transmission Extreme duty 2004r behind a mild 455 in my 66 Tempest wagon a little over a year ago. Had a thm400 in there for 23 years, before that an st300 with the original 326.It took a little finesse to get the tv cable geometry right, but after that, it seems to shift as well as the th400, plus has quite an overdrive (.67) It bolts right in, all you have to do is change the driveshaft yoke. (A th350/muncie m22/21 yoke will work) For your application you should go for the ultimate (800 hp version)Mine is the 500-700hp version, so far it seems to be holding up well. Runs about 1900 rpms at 60 miles an hour with a 3.42 gear. Does not lug this big engine. had a 3.08 gear with the thm 400, it ran about 2800 or so at the same speed. The price of one of these built up 2004rs is about $2400. Not cheap, but alot cheaper than a good 4l80e setup. These will go about $6000 with electronics. Another alternative is to rebuild the thm400 and put a gear vendors behind it. I had originally planned on doing that, but didnt like the idea of "clearancing" the floorpan. The thm400/gv would give you 6 gears,and be stronger than the 4l80e(The strongest setup possible in my opinion).

[67 Lamnas]

Rebuild your TH-400 and upgrade some of the hard parts with some pieces from ckperformance. Then get a Gearvendors OD for it.

http://gearvendors.com/

http://ckperformance.com/

[aronhk_md]

gear vendors overdrives are as expensive as a nicely redone 4L80 trans, and they do not give you the adjustability of a 4L80 trans. A purposefully built 700r4 did not survive behind a 454 I had putting out over 500 hp. I'd never go that route again no matter what anyone says about how they can be built properly. The 4L80 can be adjusted by computer for shifting patterns to your needs, with multiple profiles.

I have seen someone take a stock used 4L80 trans they paid $400 for and throw it behind a motor making 650 hp with no problems. Tons of them available too out of wrecked low mileage work vans. If you are considering a 4L80 the guy to talk to is jakeshoe. He is on this forum under that name, and other forums. He builds them, and is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful guys I've met. I'll be putting a 4L80 behind my 1100 hp turbo 462 in the next year or so. Computers have been the major expense point over other trans options........they run $500-$1100, and also the adapter plate which isnt too bad. But its a one time expense.

Just cant forget that many of these mods involve a shortened driveshaft and modifying your trans mount too.

[67 Lamnas]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Just cant forget that many of these mods involve a shortened driveshaft and modifying your trans mount too.

Don't forget to add the new convertor too.....

[goatwgn]

700r4s have a weak drum assy, they also have too much of a 1st to 2nd gear spread-3.07 to about a 1.6. These problems, plus having to use adapter plates, makes them not a good choice in my opinion. I work as a tech and have seen a lot of these fail, even in stock applications. The 2004r, while likely not suitable for the very high powered (1000 + hp applications) has a better ratio spread 2.74-1.57-1.00-.67, and has billet and hardened parts available to make it a good street trans. It is also a hundred times better than the failure prone 3 speed th200 for which it is sometimes confused with. They share some parts, but the 2004r has better metallurgy and held up pretty well in the stock applications (including the GN) that it was installed in.The GV units are tough, but expensive. A used 4l80 is a viable option if you are willing to mess with the computer. A new or remanufactured 4l80, with convertor will be quite expensive though. These are basically th400s with an overdrive planetary set and electronic valvebody. I wish someone would come out with a BOP case for one, as well as a conventional valvebody.

[WDCreech]

Since the Turbo 400 is probably the strongest automatic out there, I would stay with it, and if you want an OD, you could go this route: http://www.gearvendors.com/

[aronhk_md]

goatwgn.......there is a manual body available for the 4L80, but its about $400, and there is a complete computer available for $550. As mentioned above though there is a cost for the converter as well.

Again.....jakeshoe is the guy to talk to about the 4L80. Talk to him.....the cost for a completely redone 4L80 was around $2400 if I remember, and he was including the mechanical speedo drive which is over $400 anywhere else. $550 for the computer and $500 for a custom converter puts you at $3450 complete...........not $6000.

There are even paddle shifters available for it at a hefty premium, but I'm going to make my own with aluminum and instant on buttons.

Gear Vendors at $2800 is a poor option next to it considering the price and the features you get with the 4L80 (like being able to totally set shift points and lockup for throttle percentages at all rpm). Not to mention no need to push a button for overdrive.

[67 Lamnas]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

goatwgn.......there is a manual body available for the 4L80, but its about $400, and there is a complete computer available for $550. As mentioned above though there is a cost for the converter as well.

Again.....jakeshoe is the guy to talk to about the 4L80. Talk to him.....the cost for a completely redone 4L80 was around $2400 if I remember, and he was including the mechanical speedo drive which is over $400 anywhere else. $550 for the computer and $500 for a custom converter puts you at $3450 complete...........not $6000.

There are even paddle shifters available for it at a hefty premium, but I'm going to make my own with aluminum and instant on buttons.

Gear Vendors at $2800 is a poor option next to it considering the price and the features you get with the 4L80 (like being able to totally set shift points and lockup for throttle percentages at all rpm). Not to mention no need to push a button for overdrive.

Ummmmmm...it goes into OD automatically at either 47 or 60 MPH (your choice) without pushing a button if you're in auto mode......

[aronhk_md]

Originally Posted by 67 Lamnas

Ummmmmm...it goes into OD automatically at either 47 or 60 MPH (your choice) without pushing a button if you're in auto mode......

But in auto mode that is going to be the wrong option too many times. You are jumping onto an on ramp, getting ready to merge into the next lane when a truck comes over from a farther lane moving along close to 70 mph. Would have been nice if your auto tranny knew from your throttle position sensor that you were deep into the throttle and NOT to shift into overdrive yet. Hence using the manual shift button.

In his horsepower range for the $500-$600 difference over a gear vendors I just think the 4L80 makes a better choice. In my case at 1100 hp its going to cost more.

[67 Lamnas]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

But in auto mode that is going to be the wrong option too many times. You are jumping onto an on ramp, getting ready to merge into the next lane when a truck comes over from a farther lane moving along close to 70 mph. Would have been nice if your auto tranny knew from your throttle position sensor that you were deep into the throttle and NOT to shift into overdrive yet. Hence using the manual shift button.

In his horsepower range for the $500-$600 difference over a gear vendors I just think the 4L80 makes a better choice. In my case at 1100 hp its going to cost more.

Yep.....you're right.....in that case he'd have to push a button.......that would be ridiculous to have to do.

[HWYSTR455]

At 650/650, I don't think anyone who builds 700s or 200s are going to recommend one, unless they lie to you. Once at that level, 'live' means that it can go a season or so without stranding you.

(logical) Auto choices are TH400, or 4L80E/4L85E, period. Gear Vendors on a TH400 is a option, but in many's opinion (mine as well), not as good an option. And true, the features you get with a 4L80E are much better. Much.

Converters, they can be more, depending on what you order. The double clutch ones are expensive, which allow you to full-throttle lock up the converter, but packaging becomes an issue, or at least that's what I recall when I did the homework. Aside from that, they aren't going to be anymore than a beef 200R4 converter.

I'm close to that level of power NA, and have a 150 shot I haven't even filled the bottle for yet. I just went through this not long ago, somewhat painfully I may add, and it's hard to put a dollar amount on something when you include failure. I 'took the chance' and paid for it, money, time, aggrivation, and have to say, be as sure as you can when you make the choice. I will only suggest 4L80E/4L85Es from here on out. If you don't want to spend that money, stick with a TH400.

.

[ponjohn]

Contact jakeShoe on PY, he will guide you in the right direction.

Davey-

How is Storm?

[aronhk_md]

Originally Posted by 67 Lamnas

Yep.....you're right.....in that case he'd have to push a button.......that would be ridiculous to have to do.

To me it is ridiculous. I'm not arguing that gear vendors isnt a legitimate choice...lol. Having to reach for a push button to shift in a hurry is one of the least worrisome things to me...I was just making a point. But again, for the price the 4L80 makes more sense. How about the option to be able to program it so that it shifts one way at 40% throttle, and another at 80%? And be able to save different profiles for shifting you can create. Might allow you to gain time at the racetrack, and have a more comfortable street car for long trips all at the same time. Could also later add the shifter paddles, or make your own as I intend to do. Program where you want lockup to occur as well.

Sure, you can shift into high gear with a gear vendors to get extra cruising mileage, but with a TH400 you arent going to lock up the converter. If you have a 3500 stall converter you still have a good bit of slippage cruising. If you are using it behind a 200r4 at that hp level I too dont care how it was built.....you are pushing it. There are multiple reasons jakeshoe used to build 700r4's and 200r4's and basically doesnt any longer.

If gear vendor units were half the price I'd say its an option.....but at $500 less its just not to me.

HWYSTR455.......its my understanding that quality custom built billet converters are now available even at my horsepower levels for the 4L80 WITH lockup for around $800-$900

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

HWYSTR455.......its my understanding that quality custom built billet converters are now available even at my horsepower levels for the 4L80 WITH lockup for around $800-$900

Hm, I'm going to have to look into that. The one I have is a little loose for my taste, but aside from that, I have no complaints. And I do WOT lock-ups, just the others can handle it better, especially at the track.

I did a short write up on my 4L80E install into the driver, and listed the cost comparison to my previous (2) 200R4 setup(s). True, I went overboard, and could have easily done it cheaper, but at that point, dealing with 'trans issues' for almost 2 years, I wasn't taking any chances. On that same thread, JakeShoe posted a link to a write up of an install a customer did in a 2nd gen, would be more relevant.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=4l80e+install

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...install&page=2

.

[jakeshoe]

One thing to keep in mind with the 4L80E vs. the TH400/GV is that you get a lockup converter with the 80.

I had a TH400/GV in my Chevelle. I didn't like it, so decided to go to a 4L80E...

I can build a pretty stout 200-4R, but I wouldn't put it behind the combo posted unless I had to.

[goatwgn]

You seem to be the one in the know when it comes to these 2004r units. I wish I had known about you before I had bought mine. Although it seems to be working fine, I read something elsewhere on these threads that bothers me. (I like to see what experiences people have with things I use) I have one of CPTs exterme duty 2004rs I had purchased 2 years ago from OPGI. At first it shifted too hard (I had to copy a GM TV cable setup to get the geometry right). (it shifts fine now-a little hard in 2nd and 3rd, but livable). The only thing odd is my th400 would do a burnout forever and keep pulling, this one does one and then seems to be in third gear when it gets traction(pulls harder than the 400 on actual acceleration if I roll out to 25mph.(Why does it shift during a burnout when the 400 didnt? It is in a 66 Tempest wagon with a mild 455, 3.42 gears and 28" tall tires. The thing that concerns me is the mention of a couple of people of the excess pressure these CPT units run ruining the thrust bearing on the engine. I havent had a problem so far (engine built in 87', but I dont want to have any either) Should I be worryed about this, and If so, how can I prevent it? Also, do I need the billet parts you have with only about 390 hp, 500 lb ft? This is basically just a cruiser. I would appreciate your feedback.