[prostreet64]

There was a late model Caddy at the track last Friday night and he was running mid 10s at 134; no bar or cage. I asked one of the track employees about it, and he said that NHRA was allowing some of the newer cars, he wasn't sure how many, to run as quick as 10.00 and up to 135mph without a bar or cage. Does anybody know which cars are on this list? Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Caddys? If this is true it ticks me off because my son's Bird is banned from our track because he runs 11.40s at 118 and some dude with a bunch of money and a supercharged 2014 whatever is okay to 135!

[BILTIT]

Any '08 and newer UNALTERED.

Unaltered 2008 OEM model year and newer production cars running slower than 9.99 and 135 mph do not have to meet the requirements and specifications for the Summit Racing Series except for the following: Convertibles and T-tops must meet Summit Racing Series Roll Bar and Roll Cage requirements, All drivers must meet the Summit Racing Series Helmet and Protective Clothing requirements.”

Page 10 in link below.

http://www.nhra.com/UserFiles/file/2...Amendments.pdf

[prostreet64]

Derek,thanks for the link.

[BILTIT]

No problem, kinda bogus deal to me. Speed kills period, regardless if its a factory vehicle or not.

[screamingchief]

Meh,I can understand why they allow that.

The older cars just did'nt have the same amount of roll-over strength designed/built into them as most of these modern cars have,so I can see the logic involved in that ruling,this despite how I might personally feel about those newer cars seemingly getting a "pass" on having a bar/cage.

That's partly why new cars cost so d@mn much.

It's sorta the same disparity with OE seat belts vs. a 5 point harness.

At least my 40+ year old junk w/a roll bar is paid for,LOL.

Bret P.

[David Holmberg]

The Caddy doesn't need much to run in the 10's from the factory, very nice car.

[prostreet64]

Yea, I can see both sides of the issue, but the thing that really gets me is the rule for our older cars is based solely on e.t. and not speed. There are rice-burners at our track that have gone as fast as 130mph but not under the 11.50 threshold so they do not 'need' a bar/cage. I have brought this issue to the attention of NHRA personnel at all levels and not a single response came back.

[vin63]

Originally Posted by BILTIT

...Speed kills period...

"Speed never killed anyone...it's the sudden stops that tend to hurt." -Al Fuelling

[Skip Fix]

To me the deal is all a politcal thing. Where are even their statistics to prove cars that run X time/Y mph crash Z% of the time and roll over, have the car in the other lane hit the side needing intrusion bars??

Kind of like my '78 for years wasn't safe enough to run below 12.00 without a bar, then suddenly it became safe to run 11.50s!

Or you have a guy with a 12 second car it is OK to use 30 year old seat belts but put a rollbar in the same car it needs aftermarket belts that are only 2 years old.

Where is the engineering science for their rules?

[BILTIT]

Originally Posted by vin63

"Speed never killed anyone...it's the sudden stops that tend to hurt." -Al Fuelling

Hahaha, very true. I try to think about the possibility of my speed killing me before the sudden stops happen though.

[ventura7211]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Where is the engineering science for their rules?

Supposedly from SFI.

Reality is the majority is made up by politics/lobbying by manufacturers.

If you go to your local dirt track, you can see why the belt rule is in place, not because the belts are wore out 2 years after having the tag punched, but because if it wasn't a rule they wouldn't get replaced. Its necessary to protect people from themselves.

Same with helmets, the shell is normally fine, but the padding deteriorates over time.

Now the window net is made out of the same material as the belts (basically), but the ribbon nets are good forever, they tried to make it a 2 year deal but rescinded. Getting a custom net made every two years would be a PITA compared to buying new belts.

The cage specs are NHRA spec'd for 8.50 and slower, SFI comes into play with 25.x cages. When these cages were spec'd a panel of chassis builders was used to "design" the specs, no surprise once you eclipse 7.50 your cage has to be moly and tig'd, back when the 25.2 and 25.1 was spec'd, no one but a professional would have been able to justify the cost of the welder. Today, Tig's are affordable, by coincidence, perhaps, a non moly tube has been approved for use in 7.50 and faster cages.

Nascar uses mild steel for their cages, they do run 200 MPH, but in a quarter setting the MPH is closer to 125-130 or so to give an idea of the difference in acceleration Gs. MS has the advantage of "giving" where moly can/will shear. The difference is any yahoo with a mig can't weld together a moly cage and be legal in NHRA (they mig .065 moly dirt track cars). The solution would be to inspect the welds, there are several tig'd cages that are not structurally sound out there, not just bad mig welded, but they do not, so a cage welded by a trained professional is deemed to be the same quality as a guy dirt dobbing a MS cage together in his back yard by the NHRA.

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by prostreet64

but the thing that really gets me is the rule for our older cars is based solely on e.t. and not speed.

That's not entirely true,any car running faster than 135 mph needs to have a roll cage.

Now below that MPH,yeah the rules drop back to being based off the ET.

And of course if the "rice-mobile" was infact 2008 or newer,they are covered too.

Honestly,from my POV I dont care what the rules say I need to have,if I'm running 120+ in any car,I'm gonna have a roll bar @ the minimum,even if the rules said I did'nt need such,

Sometimes one's safety choices end up in their own hand's,and in those cases it's up to them to decide what they feel is needed to run safely.

If the rice jockey rolls his junk and dies as a result of that sorta crash,so be it,that'll be on him,me I know I'm protected to a level I feel is adequate for the sorta ET/MPH I'm gonna be running.

When it comes to safety,I tend to err on the side of overkill when/where ever possible.

FWIW

Bret P.

[Transporter]

So I have to ask, are the relaxed rules on the newer cars strictly about rollover structure, or are they also taking into account the air bags and the job that they do?

[Skip Fix]

Where does the SFI get their data? Thread here awhile back about SFI balancers for Pontiacs coming apart-SFI really inspect or have engineering specs for them?

I'm all for being safe but I do not think they have crash dat ato back up their rules. Batteries -I'd bet GM/.Ford has more data on battery movement in crashes yet NHRA requires larger bolts to hold down.

Seat belts -wear and even more UV light weakens the nylon-hw many of these cars get sunlight exposure to break them down? Again a 12 second car running a roll bar needs them but not if there is no roll bar?

I know that is their "insurance policy" and we need to protect people from themselves-but I think most are arbitrary with no real science behind them,and probably more sponsor related so the racers need to buy more new parts.

[screamingchief]

Both most likely.

I'm pretty sure it directly translates to the madated roll-over standards the newer cars need to comply with.

That's the "engineering" side someone mentioned earlier.

The OEM's are loaded with engineers.

SFI engineers can then just pass the buck and say if it's good enough for the OEM and NHTSA then it's good enough for them,LOL.

FWIW

Bret P.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

.....

I know that is their "insurance policy" and we need to protect people from themselves-but I think most are arbitrary with no real science behind them,and probably more sponsor related so the racers need to buy more new parts.

Yes.

Jim

[Skip Fix]

Bret does SFI actually have engineers that study these specifically? Study scattershield construction, tranny shield, balancer,flywheel? Review a crashed car's cage for what worked and did not? Or do they just say well this looks like it shoudl be good in theory so well make that the spec?

I know Snell tests helmets for spcfific impact before they certify them does SFI actually inspect them? If so how did those balancers make it through? And accountability?

[prostreet64]

SC, I was assuming cars at speeds under the 135 rule. Most of the imports that I have seen at our track that are running the big speed #s are 'older' cars, probably 90s vintage. My main point is to expose the inconsistency of the NHRA rule that is based on e.t. when in fact the speed is the real issue. I am not asking for an exemption, but I would like to see the NHRA change the rule to incorporate speed as well as e.t. for cars in that 'grey' area; say 11.49 e.t. or over 120 mph triggers the roll bar rule.

[60man]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

That's not entirely true,any car running faster than 135 mph needs to have a roll cage.

Now below that MPH,yeah the rules drop back to being based off the ET.

And of course if the "rice-mobile" was infact 2008 or newer,they are covered too.

Honestly,from my POV I dont care what the rules say I need to have,if I'm running 120+ in any car,I'm gonna have a roll bar @ the minimum,even if the rules said I did'nt need such,

Sometimes one's safety choices end up in their own hand's,and in those cases it's up to them to decide what they feel is needed to run safely.

If the rice jockey rolls his junk and dies as a result of that sorta crash,so be it,that'll be on him,me I know I'm protected to a level I feel is adequate for the sorta ET/MPH I'm gonna be running.

When it comes to safety,I tend to err on the side of overkill when/where ever possible.

FWIW

Bret P.

Haven't cracked a 2014 rule book but IIR if you ran more than 135 MPH or 9.99 ET NHRA required a license regardless of ET. I was always careful to mark my fastest MPH as 134 when it was clicking off low ten's @ 138 MPH passes..
Did that change?

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Bret does SFI actually have engineers that study these specifically? Study scattershield construction, tranny shield, balancer,flywheel? Review a crashed car's cage for what worked and did not? Or do they just say well this looks like it shoudl be good in theory so well make that the spec?

I know Snell tests helmets for spcfific impact before they certify them does SFI actually inspect them? If so how did those balancers make it through? And accountability?

Yes,they have testing capabilities.

http://www.sfifoundation.com/test-lab/

HTH

Bret P.