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#1
08-03-2014, 10:20 AM
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461 stroker windage tray, oil pan, & dipstick setup
I have a 461 that I just had built. I want to button it up. I placed the windage tray on and the new crank and rod bolts hit it gently as I rotate the crank. I think if I welded additional washers (spacers) on the crank side of the tray I'd get the clearance I need. The interference is small.
If I go with the lower dipstick tube shown here:  I will have to rebend it a little to fit around the new ARP studs. Theyre higher than the original crank saddle hex head bolts. You can see them here.  I am also wondering about the tray in the oil pan. I took it out to clean under it and rewelded it back in. I wish I wouldnt have because now im paranoid there are weld beads underneath that may come loose during normal operation. Im thinking about cutting it out again and then grinding the inside of the pan down smooth where my welds are.  What is everyone else doing with these setups? Any quick advice and suggestions are appreciated. |
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#2
08-03-2014, 12:58 PM
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I have used spacers under the windage tray with no issues to date. Do you have the correct dipstick tube to go through the windage tray?
Is that a 1973 block? I ask because it has threaded main caps on #2, 3, and 4 caps. I have only seen this on 73 blocks, or blocks with the wrong main caps on them. You better install the dipstick tube on the side of the block soon. It needs to go in first. You will have to pull the #3 main cap off to get it in. I install it with a little Ultra Gray silicone, then press it in, and then swedge it with a tapered punch or something like that.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#3
08-03-2014, 01:08 PM
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Are you using a full-length windage tray? I've heard they work with a little hammer massage or spacers.
That's what we're using on our 467, which is a '72 block.
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BONESTOCK GOATS '64 GTO Tripower Hardtop (Wife's Car) '64 GTO Tripower Post Coupe (My Car) '99 Bonneville SE Sedan |
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#4
08-03-2014, 02:32 PM
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Not sure what is considered a full length tray but here is what I have. It doesnt cover the entire crank so im guessing its not a full one.
 Is a windage tray needed? The factory stopped putting them in when they baffled the oil pan correct? So long as I have one ill be alright wont I? |
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#5
08-03-2014, 03:41 PM
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In the 70's, the factory started leaning away from performance, so they deleted the windage tray for one. Lowered compression, etc. The tray can add 15 HP or so, but I always drill more holes in them for oil return, and make the holes 1/2". Personally, I would run the tray, but some have had problems with them cracking[probably from crank out of balance], so either a tray or a baffled pan, but not an un-baffled pan without a windage tray.
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#6
08-03-2014, 03:42 PM
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Don't forget the outer dipstick tube. It's installed from inside the pan.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#7
08-03-2014, 03:57 PM
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Right, I have to order it. Still shopping for a lower dipstick thst presses into the block for an AC car from somewhere other than ames because ames shipping prices are retarded. How does the windage tray add HP?
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#8
08-03-2014, 04:31 PM
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When the engine is running, oil is squirting out the rods, crank mains, etc. This oil, along with the spinning of the crankshaft, creates a funnel cloud of oil. This funnel cloud makes it harder, and harder for the crank to spin, the faster it goes. A windage tray breaks up the formation of the funnel cloud, so you loose the resistance of it, in turn, gaining HP and torque. A crank scraper does the same thing.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#9
08-03-2014, 04:36 PM
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If you run the windage tray, you need the small dipstick tube that pokes through, and is held in by the windage tray. It slips into the tube on the side of the block, and runs through the windage tray. It's about 4"-5" long. No bracket on it.
The A/C tube is an addition that is slipped into the top of the block side tube that presses through the oil pan rail. That block side tube is the same for all 67 and up blocks, whether A/C is used or not. Only the dipstick and the upper tube is different.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#10
08-03-2014, 04:45 PM
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I think I understand the differences in the tubes.
Does the oil pan baffle do the same thing as the windage tray? Which one does better? Id think that the windage tray does better. If so ill weld some spacers on it where the bolts go thru it and use that one |
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#11
08-03-2014, 05:27 PM
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I do not run a windage tray ever since Jim Butler told me he doesn't. They break and do not let oil return to the pan as fast as without one.
Hey, those look like the real deal Carrillo rods!? Is this a street motor or race motor? |
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#12
08-03-2014, 05:32 PM
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What does butler do in response to this cloud effect of the oil then? Nothing? They're eagle rods. Street engine
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#13
08-03-2014, 06:12 PM
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Does the oil pan baffle do the same thing as the windage tray?
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#14
08-03-2014, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
It's main purpose is to keep oil from running forward away from the oil pump pickup under hard braking, causing a temporary loss of oil pressure. |
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#15
08-03-2014, 06:28 PM
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It wouldn't hurt to run a baffled pan and windage tray would it?
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#16
08-03-2014, 06:32 PM
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They came that way from the factory, I used a 3/4 tray and a baffled pan on my street 455 built off of a '73 455 block.
The windage tray was deleted in 1975, the first baffled pans appeared in late 1972. |
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#17
08-03-2014, 07:37 PM
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Ditch the factory one , definitely add a crank scraped & good draining tray , will definitely gain some horse . My 461 rwhp is 424 @ 484 torque pump gas .
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#18
08-04-2014, 09:57 PM
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Just welded some fender washers for spacers on my windage tray. One of the spacers got off center a little but I was able to get all the bolts in when I started them all with just a few threads.Drilled more holes in it too. Installed with some new bolts and lock washers. Btw, y do these break? Someone mentioned that they do that.
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#19
08-05-2014, 01:59 AM
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I think they crack from crank out of balance, which gets the main caps waving all over the place and tweaking on the windage tray. I have built a lot of Pontiac's with them and have not had an issue with them. The couple I saw that were cracked, were on out of balance engines.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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#20
08-05-2014, 03:52 AM
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The factory full length windage trays were prone to cracking especially on high performance engines. The Tomahawk windage tray is an exact duplicate of the factory 3/4 length windage tray but made out of a heavier gage metal and has additional drain back holes. Most people run a baffled pan and a windage tray. The baffled pan is to keep the oil in the pan so the pan doesn't go dry. The windage tray is to keep oil off the crank to prevent drag caused by oil wrapping around the crank.
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Tim Corcoran |
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